Who"s the oldest virgin here? [Archive] - Page 2

Oraphus

12-14-2005, 05:40 PM

I just can't imagine how ridiculous I would appear if I even tried to initiate any sort of dialog with a woman. I'm 40 years old, never been married, never dated, never had a girlfriend - never had any sort of interaction with a woman in my life.

I wouldn't have a clue as to what I was doing, and I just can't see humiliating myself (much less any potential date) by even attempting to do so.
look man, it's really not that difficult.. this is going to sound funny/corny and i hate to admit that i started out the same way.. but you can learn a lot from watching movies/shows.

See how "likable" guys act around women/ other people in those movies.
Now i understand that in movies certain aspects are exagerated.. but overall all the basics are there. Try to mimmick their behavior, even if you're faking it.. think of it as acting (that's what dating is the first couple of dates anyway)
Then look at what kind of responce you get and how it makes you feel. If you like it and have success, keep doing it. If you dont, try something else.. this will also help you understand what you're about and make you feel more comfortable. It might seem fake at first.. but it will help you figure out your own character traits.. and will help you develop your "game" .. for a lack of better description.

Hu Phan

12-14-2005, 08:49 PM

The_Cube

12-14-2005, 09:46 PM

I am somebody else who perhaps has a place in this thread.

Almost 33 years old, never had a girlfriend, kissed, been on a date with anyone. Certainly no intimacy. Women and the whole world of relationships are just a terrible mystery to me.

I am one of the shy ones and can barely manage to talk to any woman I am interested in. Generally, I just stare at the floor and mumble something incoherent on the rare occassions they talk to me. The one time I did work up the courage to ask a girl out (March 1991), I was met with an unambigous response, "**** off, you loser!"

The suggestion of counselling is a good one for some people. I did it for three years though with no noticeable effect.

I am also quite obese which naturally does not help much.

To tell you the honest truth, you are way better off being single than being with a girl like that (I know, I'm Captain Obvious). Being single is underrated. You don't have half the responsibilties you would have if you were married/dating and you can do/buy pretty much whatever you want. You just can't let peer pressure make you feel bad about not being "normal." I'll bet a ton of people get married just because of peer pressure or pressure from their parents or other family members.

Nightrider662

12-16-2005, 05:12 PM

I know what you're going through HU. At least you had the courage to actually ask somebody out My problems started for me in Junior High School and I really never got over it. Thats where my depression started and I've been depressed ever since. I feel like a freak sometimes.

PacMan2006

12-16-2005, 05:46 PM

Interesting stories, guys. Night rider...curious, how old are you?

To Hu and Night and even Testy...I'm also curious...are you guys content with your situations...I mean, not that you are HAPPY, but are you content with life or where you are at? Or are you upset and/or have an empty feeling inside?

And one thing I'm also interested in...do you guys think at some point you'll do something about your situation...maybe go on the pro-active there...or are you sort of hoping that you get lucky and something or someone initiates something with you? Or are you guys at a point now where it's actually been so long now, that you actually DON'T want anything to do with the opposite sex and any relationship for fear of awkwardness/lack of experience? Or are you just completely indifferent?

Just trying to get a better picture. Thanks.

Tarantino

12-16-2005, 08:05 PM

You guys should use the internet as a dating forum. Seriously. Try myspace.

= J

ChrisKnudsen

12-18-2005, 01:58 AM

You guys should use the internet as a dating forum. Seriously. Try myspace.

= J

Yeah use myspace if you want to date some fatties that you think aren't fat.

SteveOVig

12-18-2005, 07:59 AM

I'm in a similar situation with some of you guys right now. I haven't dated much but have had opportunities where I could have dated but was too shy to do anything about it. I'm only 21 though so I'm not too depressed about it yet. I was actually using online dating as it took off a lot of pressure in approaching women as it was done over IMing. The problem is most of the women online are either pregnant or are psychos, is this how offline dating ends up too!

Anyway, I've been in a situation recently where this Target clerk has said hi to me, out of the blue, on several occasions. She doesn't seem to say it to anyone else but I've been afraid to ask her out. I don't know what to say and I'm afraid of rejection, even in a situation like this. I thought about just going up to her, introducing myself, and just point blank, asking her out. Is this a good plan or do I need to have some sort of sly pickup line to get her to care?

TomOpus

12-18-2005, 08:48 AM

Anyway, I've been in a situation recently where this Target clerk has said hi to me, out of the blue, on several occasions. She doesn't seem to say it to anyone else but I've been afraid to ask her out. I don't know what to say and I'm afraid of rejection, even in a situation like this. I thought about just going up to her, introducing myself, and just point blank, asking her out. Is this a good plan or do I need to have some sort of sly pickup line to get her to care?Just ask her if Target carries extra large condoms. That's a good ice breaker. ;)

No, seriously, I'm not an expert but do not use some pickup line. This is Target, not the corner bar. Next time you bump into her just start some small talk "Hi, how's it going"? Call her by her name (I'm assuming you've already checked her name tag). See where the convo goes and how she talks to you. If she doesn't call security then introduce yourself. Maybe next time you run into her you can see if she'd like to see a movie or maybe a bite to eat sometime. If she reveals she already is taken, don't burn your bridge. You never know when she'll need a friendly face if her relationship goes south.

joliom

12-19-2005, 01:46 AM

I used to hear the word 'boyfriend' and abandon ship. Now that I'm a little older and wiser I realize that every girl says that. It doesn't mean anything. Keep flirting and see what happens. If she just keeps on finding ways to bring up her man, then she's definitely not interested. But don't bail at the first mention of the boyfriend, it's like the wall of fire in Planet of the Apes - a cheap defensive tactic used to ward off the weak.

Oraphus

12-19-2005, 01:18 PM

BTW..... just wanted tometion this to all you younger guys, dont get discouraged as the avg age a guy looses his virginity is 22-23 y old in US

Darknite39

12-19-2005, 01:22 PM

According to whom? (Not said with any kind of attitude, mind you.)

greg9x

12-19-2005, 03:19 PM

BTW..... just wanted tometion this to all you younger guys, dont get discouraged as the avg age a guy looses his virginity is 22-23 y old in US

Yeah where'd that data come from ?? I'd say it's alot closer to 17, especially for an 'average'.... maybe as lose thier virginity by that age.

Nightrider662

12-20-2005, 04:27 PM

To PacMan

I turned 40 in June.

No I'm not really content. I have an empty feeling about it and its not just about being a virgin. Its more about being alone. I'm just very shy and awkward when it comes to women. I don't even have very many male friends. I think my problems started when I was younger. I was picked on a lot and teased. That just stayed with me and I'm afraid to take chances...like I might be laughed at.

Testy

12-20-2005, 05:49 PM

I'm also curious...are you guys content with your situations...I mean, not that you are HAPPY, but are you content with life or where you are at? Or are you upset and/or have an empty feeling inside?

No, I'm not content with life where I'm at but I'm also resigned to the fact that this is probably my destiny and things will always be this way. I go through every day feeling empty and alone, but don't have the energy anymore to really try and do much about it either.

Or are you guys at a point now where it's actually been so long now, that you actually DON'T want anything to do with the opposite sex and any relationship for fear of awkwardness/lack of experience?

That pretty much describes it. As much as I would like to have a girlfriend, I'm also terrified of what it would be like because of the lack of experience. I'm convinced that I would come across as a cheese-eating high school boy. I just can't imagine how awkward and humiliating it would be (both for me and the woman) if I by some chance did have a date or something. I'm sure it would be disastrous...

Testy

12-20-2005, 05:51 PM

No I'm not really content. I have an empty feeling about it and its not just about being a virgin. Its more about being alone. I'm just very shy and awkward when it comes to women. I don't even have very many male friends. I think my problems started when I was younger. I was picked on a lot and teased. That just stayed with me and I'm afraid to take chances...like I might be laughed at.

That's pretty much my story. I was unpopular and was picked on a lot in Junior High. I never had a girlfriend (or many friends at all) in High School - in fact I hated HS. Even to this day, I have very few close male friends, and obviously no female friends at all.

Mochalatte

12-20-2005, 07:26 PM

That pretty much describes it. As much as I would like to have a girlfriend, I'm also terrified of what it would be like because of the lack of experience. I just can't imagine how awkward and humiliating it would be (both for me and the woman) if I by some chance did have a date or something. I'm sure it would be disastrous...

I'm new here and I haven't read through this entire post, but from what I have read, I'm just wondering what kind of women some of you guys are meeting. We're just people, you know. I've been out with several shy, awkward types and as long as they're not trying to act like someone or something they're not I find them to be utterly charming. Give me a shy bumbler over a cocky egomaniac any day. And yes, I have dated a few virgins. They didn't all stay that for way for long, though. :p

In short, just be yourself and find a woman who isn't hung up on all the wrong things! Find a woman who has the same interests that you do. If you both have a passion for movies or a sport or rock collecting then there's a lot less focus on your perceived inadequacies. Find someone who's worthy of being your friend first and then see where that goes.

PacMan2006

12-20-2005, 07:33 PM

Hey Mocha, how old are you? Just curious. Thanks.

Testy

12-20-2005, 07:54 PM

I'm new here and I haven't read through this entire post, but from what I have read, I'm just wondering what kind of women some of you guys are meeting.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case I'm not meeting any women.

I go to work each day, then I come home. I don't really go out much after work, I just don't have the energy or the ambition anymore. Weekends are the same, I am usually hanging around the house or riding my motorcycle, more solitary type things.

At my age (40), the thought of having to go on my first date ever is simply terrifying. In my case, I've never asked a woman out before, never been on a date, and never had any kind of physical contact. It's one thing to be like when you're 14 (it's expected), but quite another to be like this when you're 40. It's abnormal, and I just don't know how to deal with it.

On another note, I am also nervous about Christmas coming up. If someone in my family gets me that "40 Year Old Virgin" DVD, I'm gonna have a tough time even looking at it. While I'm sure it's a very funny movie, just the thought of family members talking about it is making me nervous. Hard to pretend to laugh along when, unknown to most, you are the butt of the joke at the same time...

lucasorion

12-20-2005, 08:04 PM

I've gotta say, as one of the virgins here (late 20's), too many of us seem way too pessimistic. We are in control of whether or not we have a social life - there is no memo out to all the women in the world to keep away. Have you seen some of the guys out there with girlfriends? For whatever reason, we have been isolating ourselves and making it much less likely that we will find someone. The causes are complex, but I believe the solutions are comparably easy. Maybe therapy is needed, especially for depression (I struggled through that for years, too proud to get help) but a lot of the time I think it may just take some time spent reasoning it out. For me, the first step is getting in shape - I'm progressing nicely on that front, especially considering that I'm stuck with working out inside until the snow melts and I can go back to playing pickup basketball. I think the key is to make a plan of action instead of waiting for Ms. Right to do all the work. When I feel comfortable being seen by women (maybe even confident) instead of feeling like the phantom of the opera because I'm carrying 20-30 extra pounds, I know I'll be more comfortable talking with them - which I've already improved at a lot since my teen years.

Mochalatte

12-20-2005, 08:18 PM

PacMan: I'm 30.

Testy: The sweetest boyfriend I ever had was a nervous wreck when we first met. He just told me that up front and it worked for us. Had he tried to pose as something he wasn't, I'm sure it would have been a turnoff. But I liked him a lot better for his honesty.

lucasorion: You make one really good point there - look at the guys who have gfs, the guys who have wives, etc. and many of them are not exactly God's gift, ya know? But then you go on to say that when you're in better shape, when you've had some therapy, THEN you'll be ready. You're ready now. I find men who dig around in therapy about every little thing - and don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing therapy at all, I've spent some time on the couch myself - instead of just living their life in an interesting and meaningful way, fairly unattractive and offputting and I know that I'm not the only woman who feels this way. If you think your life is interesting then so will she. Ok, maybe not the first one you meet/go out with and maybe not the second or even the third. That's why it's so hard (for EVERYONE!) to hook up with someone. But it shouldn't be any harder for someone who's "shy" or "clumsy" or "embarrassed." We're all like that sometimes. Any woman worth knowing will understand this.

lucasorion

12-20-2005, 09:52 PM

Actually what I was saying is that maybe therapy is needed for some people. I could have used therapy 10 years ago when I was really depressed, but I "toughed it out" and probably wasted about five years when I could have been turning my life around with some help, instead of just holding on and hating to wake up each morning. As for the getting in shape thing; for me a big issue has been feeling comfortable in my own skin, I knew I was a decent person, but I didn't feel like a woman could be attracted to me (probably a bit of 'body dismorphia' there). I kept putting off getting in shape, kept slipping back into bad habits after periods of progress, and it fed into a defeatist attitude about my life in general - "If I can't get this right, how can I hope to have a successful relationship?". I feel like this is something I have to accomplish, for myself, before I start to really pursue what I have kept myself from for so long.

Mochalatte

12-20-2005, 10:34 PM

I kept putting off getting in shape, kept slipping back into bad habits after periods of progress, and it fed into a defeatist attitude about my life in general - "If I can't get this right, how can I hope to have a successful relationship?". I feel like this is something I have to accomplish, for myself, before I start to really pursue what I have kept myself from for so long.

Can I ask you a question, lucasorion? Do you really think that everyone that's in a successful relationship has managed to get everything else "together" beforehand? You seem like a very nice, sensitive, intelligent person. I just hope you wouldn't use the weight issue (and only 20-30 pounds?!) as a barrier if you were to come across a nice woman who you could be very compatible with. Don't wait until everything's perfect before you live life because it will never be perfect. Just do what you can with what you have now, with who you are right now. It's really enough. :)

scottall

12-20-2005, 10:38 PM

It would be a nice public service if Mochalatte could travel and help any forum members in need.

Mochalatte

12-20-2005, 11:01 PM

Lol! Sorry, this is my first day here on these forums. I'd have to get know you all a little better first...

I just get frustrated when I see men (and I'm not saying that these particular men are doing this, ok?) say that "all women" or even "most women" are judgemental and won't like them if they're not buff and cool and perfect and then who do they go after? The ice queen snob because she's a hottie. Look behind her, guys. There's usually a sweet and shy girl right behind her who would love to get to know you if you'd only open your eyes and look. I'll get off my soapbox now!

Mochalatte

12-20-2005, 11:02 PM

Catwoman snob? That's not what I wrote... Weird!

lucasorion

12-20-2005, 11:44 PM

Can I ask you a question, lucasorion? Do you really think that everyone that's in a successful relationship has managed to get everything else "together" beforehand? You seem like a very nice, sensitive, intelligent person. I just hope you wouldn't use the weight issue (and only 20-30 pounds?!) as a barrier if you were to come across a nice woman who you could be very compatible with. Don't wait until everything's perfect before you live life because it will never be perfect. Just do what you can with what you have now, with who you are right now. It's really enough. :)

I definitely know I won't be perfect after I'm comfortable with my physique, it's just that I've never been comfortable with it and I feel like turning that corner will be a particular milestone for me. If some great woman comes along and seems interested, I'm not going to be sending her away; but I think as long as my appearance is an issue for me, that will be externalized through vibes or pheromones or whatever it is that repels instead of attracting. I have never been told by anyone I'm not related to that I looked nice, or handsome, or cute, etc. I've never been flirted with, or seen anyone checking me out. I don't think this is because I am hideous, but more likely because I have spent all these years trying to be unseen (like what I said earlier about the phantom of the opera - unfortunately I can't sing) and have gotten so good at it that I am barely noticed, much less evaluated.

Anyway, thank you for the nice words, welcome to the forums, and may you not always be forced to spend your time on them consoling lonely guys.

Mochalatte

12-20-2005, 11:59 PM

I have never been told by anyone I'm not related to that I looked nice, or handsome, or cute, etc. I've never been flirted with, or seen anyone checking me out.

Seriously... look around you. Most people are only "average" looking. Only about 5%, maybe 7% are the ones getting all the attention for their appearance. When I learned to let go of that and to emphasize my strengths (I do have some beyond consoling lonely guys on forums, lol) - things started happening for me. I was a late bloomer myself, but that's another story. I bloomed! You can, too. Just find the things that you like about yourself and do them as often as you can. Most of us can't get by on our looks. We deal with it. :)

I don't think this is because I am hideous, but more likely because I have spent all these years trying to be unseen (like what I said earlier about the phantom of the opera - unfortunately I can't sing) and have gotten so good at it that I am barely noticed, much less evaluated.

Strengths like that. You're smart and funny! And introspective. Too bad you can't sing. :P

And thanks for the welcome.

lucasorion

12-21-2005, 12:33 AM

I've been working on a "lonely, too old to be a virgin" playlist. Here's what I've got so far:
Al Green - Tired of Being Alone
America - Lonely People
Barbara Mason - Yes, I'm Ready
Beatles - Here Comes The Sun (good hopeful song)
Bob Dylan - Lay Lady Lay
Cheap Trick - I Want You To Want Me
Eagles - Desperado
Everly Brothers - When Will I Be Loved
James Brown - Try Me
John Lennon - Love & Real Love
Marmalade - Reflections Of My Life
Neil Young - Comes A Time & The Loner
Otis Redding/Sam Cooke - A Change Is Gonna Come
Pink Floyd - Time (reminder of how quickly time passes)
Ray Charles - You Don't Know Me
Simon & Garfunkel - I Am A Rock
The Temptations - Just My Imagination
U2 - I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For
Van Morrison - Someone Like You (good song to dance together once you find her, nicely depressing until then)

Mochalatte

12-21-2005, 12:43 AM

Well, all right. I guess that makes up for not being able to sing.

Cameron

12-21-2005, 12:51 AM

Nightrider662

12-21-2005, 12:52 AM

Yea I have never had any woman flirt with me or show any interest either. I am slightly overweight. Whenever I get depressed I eat. I've gone on diets before but I always gain the weight back. But that is not my main problem. My main problem is I'm scared to death.

Testy: Thats exactly how it was for me. It was junior High where I really got picked on. Some kids started a rumor about me which wasn't true and I never was able to get over it. I was pretty much ostracized. Just like you I pretty much stay to myself and don't go out much. I wish I would have done a lot of things different when I was younger and now I feel like its to late.

lucasorion

12-21-2005, 01:05 AM

you forgot
satisfaction-the rolling stones
loser-beck

Should have thought of satisfaction, the lyrics to loser are a fog in my mind - "Soy, oohh Canada, I'm a loser baby so why don't you kill me" then something about cheeze whiz, I don't know.

Seriously... look around you. Most people are only "average" looking. Only about 5%, maybe 7% are the ones getting all the attention for their appearance.

reminds me of the Seinfeld line about how 95% of the population is undateable ("have you been to the DMV?") and people are only getting together because of alcohol. Unfortunately, I don't and won't drink.

Mochalatte

12-21-2005, 10:22 AM

reminds me of the Seinfeld line about how 95% of the population is undateable ("have you been to the DMV?")

YES! Exactly!

and people are only getting together because of alcohol. Unfortunately, I don't and won't drink.

People are getting together because it's human nature to seek a companion. People are getting together because when you find someone who "gets" you the world is a much nicer place. You shouldn't have to drink, and longterm relationships seldom come about from drinking anyway.

I know I sound like Dear Abby here but she's right. Join a club. Go to church if that's your thing. Find people that share your interests (preferably IRL and not online, although some people have had success the online way) and some of them will be available females. At least one of those available females will have a thing for shy, sweet guys. But in the meantime, focus on that interest, that club, that belief, whatever it is that makes you spark so that when she finds you - you're sparking! :)

Oraphus

12-21-2005, 11:52 AM

According to whom? (Not said with any kind of attitude, mind you.)
I read an article a while back stating so.. it basically said that even though majority say that they lost their virginity ~17.. in reality it's closer to early 20's.
i cant find the article now though.. so i am not quiet sure what they used to get this info.

PacMan2006

12-21-2005, 12:57 PM

Well, I'm somewhat in the same boat though not exactly. I'm 22 and a virgin, although I've had physical contact and interactions/conversations with girls. I don't exactly quite think that's my issue.

My thing is I feel I'm just different from everyone in my age bracket. I don't like to drink. I don't have anything morally against it, but I just don't like the taste. And I've heard people say, "Well, I didn't like it but after many times trying it it grew on me." Not to sound standoffish about it, but I don't want it to grow on me. If I don't like it I don't like. I've been invited to parties or clubbing with friends and all, but I just feel that having an objective to get wasted and drunk for entertainment purposes...well...it doesn't do it for me. And I also don't want to be the one guy at the party drinking a Pepsi and seeing people around me acting a fool because they are intoxicated. And I also feel that there is this serious stigma that if you DON'T drink or party then you aren't "cool" or you are anti-social. I don't think I necessarily am, I just know what I like and know what I don't. I know what makes me comfortable and what doesn't. Unfortunately, what makes me uncomfortable is what everyone loves to do.

I also don't choose to do drugs or weed or anything like it. Again, many people my age do it. And I'm not naiive about the parties that go on or have any kind of crazy trumped up idea about them. I have friends who tell me their about their adventures at parties. I go on thefacebook.com and see pictures. It's just not for me, and it gets on my nerves because I feel like because I choose not to do that, I'm am handicapped in the amount of people/girls I could get to know. Conversely, I know that there's a good chance that the people I meet there I wouldn't be into anyways. So it's a catch 22.

I'm fine with a one on one convo most of the time, but if I'm hanging out with multiple people...it gives me anxiety. That's been a case since elementary school and is why I never talked much in class.

I'm not dumb enough to think that with the world as big as it is, I can't find people with my beliefs. And understand, I'm no prude or anything. I like to be silly and have fun and be goofy and all. But I feel that my idea of having fun and most people in my age group's idea of having fun are just so drastically different. And because of that, the pool of people I could potentially meet, to me, is decreased BY FAR.

This is kind of just scratching the surface, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Tarantino

12-21-2005, 01:27 PM

You can find some good looking girls on myspace...trust me.

= J

Mochalatte

12-21-2005, 01:28 PM

PacMan,

Two words for you. Older women. You're just too mature for the girls your age, that's all. You sound lovely. I'm sure that you will find someone who will appreciate that and you are absolutely right that bars and clubs are not the most likely place to do so.

I'm 30 and I met my late husband when I was 21 and he was 35. (He was a cop and he was killed three years ago on the job.) I had never had a serious relationship before then because I, like you, had no patience for the guys I met in my own age bracket. We hit it off immediately. We got married four months after we met!

Anyway, I didn't mean to make this about me. I just really think that you need to look for women who are older than you are and who have outgrown the bar scene. Hey, maybe there are women your age who, like you, have outgrown the bar scene but I'd wager that there are far more the older you go on the spectrum.

Again, I'll repeat my mantra. Don't go "looking for someone," but go looking for life and where there are women looking for life in the same places - you'll find each other.

(I met my husband in a group of skiing fanatics. We both lived to ski. Find your passion and then you just might meet someone who shares that passion!)

The_Cube

12-21-2005, 01:41 PM

greg9x

12-21-2005, 02:53 PM

No, not everyone has to drink to have fun... but you do realize it is a LARGE segment of the adult population who is single... by shunning that population you seriously reduce your chances of finding single women, especially single women who's defenses are down enough to 'get to know' you.
But as I said not everyone drinks, but the fact that some of you look down on people who drink and cannot have fun when around them shows a bit more of a 'stick up your ass' attitude that is probably contributing to not getting laid... i've known several people who didn't drink that came out to the bars all the time, and because of thier attitude they had fun. Something to think about.
Otherwise, hey, I wasn't always the most socaially adept person...but the one thing i've learned as i've gotten older is "just don't care" what people think... now there is a line in there to not becoming 'that' guy who just makes everyone uncomfortable... but if you go around worrying what everyone else thinks you defeat yourself. If you have that hard of a time, maybe find someone who is more how you want to be and get some clues to what your doing wrong. However nice it is for people to say "just be yourself", if you know the reality is it's just not working, then you have to be willing to make some changes.

DRG

12-21-2005, 03:20 PM

No, not everyone has to drink to have fun... but you do realize it is a LARGE segment of the adult population who is single... by shunning that population you seriously reduce your chances of finding single women, especially single women who's defenses are down enough to 'get to know' you.
But as I said not everyone drinks, but the fact that some of you look down on people who drink and cannot have fun when around them shows a bit more of a 'stick up your ass' attitude that is probably contributing to not getting laid... i've known several people who didn't drink that came out to the bars all the time, and because of thier attitude they had fun. Something to think about.

Agree with this totally. Also, the comments by some of the posters tend to imply that everyone who goes out and has drinks ends up binge drinking themselves into stupid asshole territory. It's possible to be in a social drinking situation where people are socializing and not doing beer bongs and lining up shots so they puke later on. I also have friends who only drink Cokes when we go out. We don't consider them "outcasts", in fact we're actually grateful they are there to drive us home if things do get out of hand! ;) Of course, YMMV on this and perhaps all your friends ARE raging alcoholics, in which case I don't know what to tell you.

wergo

12-21-2005, 04:15 PM

Long time listener, first time caller here. Been lurking around here for quite awhile, and I might as well chime in.

Things just don't work out the way they're portrayed sometimes. A couple of decades ago, I started out with the attitude that I should just do what interests me and I'd end up meeting someone there. It just never happened and I lost that fantasy pretty fast. I tried to find groups and clubs and there just aren't a whole lot of them. Well, none with available women in them, anyway. Then I started volunteering and signing up for as many night school courses as I could afford. That was even worse. After a decade of rejection I just gave up shelled out a couple of thousand dollars to a dating service. Man, was that ever a waste of money. Dating services and personal ad companies have the business morals of Tony Soprano. Lots of money and frustration down the drain, but never actually met a single woman. By the time I hit thirty five I was panicing pretty badly and started to go in for therapy. A hundred dollars a week (plus the cost of antidepressants) just so I could repeat the same things over and over again. If nothing new ever happens in your life, what are you supposed to say? You spend all your time trying to either identify opportunities or make them yourself. And there just aren't enough pills in the world to make your solitary-confinement prison cell of an apartment any more bearable.

By now (early 40s) I don't even go out anymore with the hope of meeting someone, I just go out because I can't stand being alone in the apartment any more than I have to. Women find me repulsive, and I really have no idea why. I'm thin, fit, dress well and have great personal hygiene.

The thing is, there just isn't any part of society that helps the process. There are no singles bars outside of TV and movies (I spend five or six nights a week in clubs and the few times the bouncer lets me go in, all I ever find is college students (and a few high school kids with fake IDs), and most of them are already on dates; they're not alone. And they certainly don't want some dirty old man bothering them.) and there is nothing in the media in the way of advice for singles regarding how to meet; just ads for dating services and online personals (and, oh yeah, the "how to pick up chicks"/TJ Mackey-type stuff. have you ever read 'The Game'? that stuff is scary.). Everyone desperate to take advantage of desperate, lonely guys, nothing to actually help.

Every day I pass by thousands of people in the street who have lives; friends family - heck, some of them even possible have sex (for how much longer do I have to endure the media CONSTANTLY reminding me just how much sex underage kids are having lately? talk about salt in the wound....). And, if you don't have access to those, there is just no way to break into that world. I've spend the past decade or so just cold-approaching women on the street, in subways, in coffee shops, art galleries, bookstores, and the responses are ALWAYS variations on the same theme; NO ONE wants to be bothered by strangers. it's just desperate and pathetic and occasionally threatening, At the very least; embarrassing. For every guy out there who's being encouraged to just work up the courage to talk to girls and realize that they're not as intimidating as they look there's a woman who's being told to never let guys pick her up and only go out with guys their friends already know. And it's got nothing to do with looks; the shy/fat/less attractive women reject just as quickly as the supermodels do; whether it's "you're a nice guy - you're just not my type" or "which part of fuck off don't you understand, asshole?" it's all the same end result.

I actually almost envy the guys who are too shy to approach women; at least they have the comfort of believing that, if they just got over it, they'd have a shot. For those of us who have spent our entire lives failing miserably, there is no such comfort. Just night after night of lying alone in bed, too angry and frustrated to sleep, knowing full well that tommorrow is going to be even worse. And so it has gone since Reagan was in the White House and so it shall go until death.

At this point, I can't even imagine that a woman would be willing to even sit for five minutes having a cup of coffee with me (hey, it hasn't happened in decades). The idea that anyone would ever want to have sex with me is pure science fiction/fantasy. And no amount of denial is gonna supply the required confidence. Going through life without being touched by another human being? It does things to you, psychologically. Seriously. You stop feeling like you're even part of the human race; just like you're part of a control group that doesn't get to interact. The people with social lives and families? They're real people. You? You're just there to exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide and pay taxes.

I get that the majority of the rejection comes from the attention being unwanted; I get that there ARE no appropriate venues to hit on women, and I get that, as long as I have no friends or social connects through which I can meet women more casually, I have no other choice.

It's the day to day living/failing that wears me down the most. I find it almost impossible to go to a concert or sit through a movie without being constantly distracted by the happy couples around me. And that (sorry, but it's true) makes me physically ill with jealousy. (Hey, even buying a DVD is depressing - I know I'm gonna have to sit and watch it alone.) Being out in public is painful and staying in just makes me feel like I'm not even trying. Is there a third option?

lucasorion

12-21-2005, 06:11 PM

I've felt a lot of the same feelings that you have, but I also have thought long and hard about it and came to the realization that the world doesn't have anything against me and that my situation is entirely self-created and self-perpetuated. When you can take that responsibility upon yourself, it makes changing your reality so much more doable than when you believe that this is just how it is meant to go for you. People often seem like they are all in their own cocoons, but in reality we are constantly interacting in tiny yet substantive ways with all the other people around us. The expressions on our face, our body language - the attitudes which come to the surface, send as strong a message as our words. There is no rule about when changes in our life have to take place before it becomes too late, we just become comfortable with what has become normal for us, and we take consolation in our difference to some degree.

Mochalatte

12-21-2005, 06:35 PM

I've been thinking about what wergo said for a few hours now and I came back to comment and found that lucasorion said some of what I'd been thinking.

I have to add this: I honestly can not remember the last time I ever thought of a man as being "repulsive." Is it possible that you're projecting something there? I mean, that's a very strong reaction and I just don't go around feeling that and I'm sure other women don't either.

But yeah - if you're going around thinking that women are finding you repulsive then that's going to come across somehow. Even if it's subtle.

Women are brought up for the most part to be careful and not too welcoming when it comes to men. For our safety. Is it possible that you're interpreting this natural wariness as more than it really is? Sometimes we're chilly to a strange man at first until we're confident that he's not a serial killer or rapist. Maybe you need to learn to hang in there past that?

lucasorion

12-21-2005, 07:00 PM

One thing that I am going to keep in mind when I do start putting myself out there more, approaching women, etc. is that a little humor goes a long way. The times when I've been around women and they've been somewhat responsive/congenial have been the times when I was not deadly serious - like I'm in the middle of some mission - but instead I was humorous and a little witty. I don't think humor is a skill as much as an attitude, and I have learned that a little bit of it can go a long way to open the channels of communication with women. In order to approach the situation with humor though, you have to discard the running commentary in your head telling you all the wrong things, replaying bad moments in the past, and setting you up to relive them in the present.

Testy

12-21-2005, 07:36 PM

Going through life without being touched by another human being? It does things to you, psychologically. Seriously. You stop feeling like you're even part of the human race; just like you're part of a control group that doesn't get to interact. The people with social lives and families? They're real people. You? You're just there to exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide and pay taxes.

Wergo,

Not to make light of the situation, but when I read that last sentence I just about spit up on my monitor :)

I often feel the same way though. Just how abnormal is it to be 40 years old, and never have had physical contact with another human being? It's so depressing to go out shopping and see 15 year olds getting more action walking through the mall than I've ever had. I've never even gotten as far as holding hands, much less anything else.

I think you're right in that human beings need a certain amount of physical and emotional interaction to be healthy. It's NOT healthy to be isolated like this for 40 years, and I know it's not normal but yet I seem powerless to be able to do anything about it.

Nightrider662

12-21-2005, 07:55 PM

Its not normal. I've gone out to the movies and have seen couples together while I sit alone. Thats one reason I don't go out to the movies much but its everywhere. Everytime I turn on the tv I see couples together. You really can't avoid it and it's a constant reminder of my failure.It really is bothering me a lot more now than it even used to. It must be because I'm getting older and I'm afraid I'm going to die alone.

wergo

12-21-2005, 08:05 PM

I have to add this: I honestly can not remember the last time I ever thought of a man as being "repulsive." Is it possible that you're projecting something there? I mean, that's a very strong reaction and I just don't go around feeling that and I'm sure other women don't either.

But yeah - if you're going around thinking that women are finding you repulsive then that's going to come across somehow. Even if it's subtle.

Okay, what antonym for "attractive" should I use? When you've proven yourself incapable of attracting someone, how else can you see it? I don't wanna come of as a drama queen or anything but, over such a long span of time, that's how it feels. If anyone has any suggestions as to how to brainwash yourself into the required level of denial (I'd really like to NOT turn myself into David Brent from 'The Office', though.) I'd love to hear them.

Women are brought up for the most part to be careful and not too welcoming when it comes to men. For our safety. Is it possible that you're interpreting this natural wariness as more than it really is? Sometimes we're chilly to a strange man at first until we're confident that he's not a serial killer or rapist. Maybe you need to learn to hang in there past that?

That might work in situations where you interact with someone over time. When you're approaching someone you've never seen before in public, you really only get one shot. And not taking "no" for an answer is no way to make a good first impression. Maybe I've been brainwashed by one too many sexual harrassment seminars at work, but I really have no idea how to hang in there past that without coming off as more threatening (or at least arrogant.)

You know, I used to go out constantly not even trying to meet people. I figure I'd just sit and observe how others did it. And, as far as I can see, they don't. In my entire life I've NEVER seen anyone cold-approach a strange women in public. Back to my claim that society isn't really helpful, there are no professionals that teach this stuff (and I'm NOT talking about those "how to pick up chicks" guys. All they sell is a snake oil based on chronic pep talks and instructions on how to degrade women verbally. I'm thinking more in line with basic social skills. You know, the ones some of us obviously didn't learn early enough.) and there seems to be a real demand for this.

There's a reason most people walk around with iPods earphones and read books on subways and wear sunglasses; they DON'T want to be bothered by other people. That's a hard hurdle to clear.

At least, it's hard to clear when you've never successfully done it before and you don't have anybody else to show you how it's done.

Testy

12-21-2005, 09:04 PM

At least, it's hard to clear when you've never successfully done it before and you don't have anybody else to show you how it's done.

My feelings exactly. It's one thing to be awkward and inexperienced when you're 13-14 years old, it's quite another to be at that same stage at 40. How and where does a 40 year old person learn the social skills most people seemed to have learned 25 years earlier in their lives?

Darknite39

12-21-2005, 11:03 PM

Honestly, at some point you just have to suck it up and TRY something--anything--to get yourself out there interacting with people. I know it's hard--I'm INCREDIBLY ruminatory--but at this point, I realize that if I don't change my ways, I will die alone.

What do I say when I make an ass of myself? "Damnit." or sometimes even "DAMNIT!!! What the Hell was I THINKING!!! ARG!!!"

How do I get over my fuckups? It was HARD at first, but eventually I realized that EVERYONE makes social mistakes. Life is hard, and different things come more easily to some people than they do to others. I (and a lot of others in this thread) have to start being more proactive. Don't just sit on your ass and complain/ruminate about your problems--the only way you're going to nip this in the bud is to put yourself into some kind of social situation and start interacting with people. It doesn't matter who you start with, just work on your skills until you're at least slightly confident that you're ready to progress into other situations (e.g., group interactions to one-on-one conversations). This skill-building process is not likely to be easy, but it's definitely rewarding.

IT ISN'T TOO LATE to start the process. If your experience is anything like mine (I realize this obviously isn't the case for some of you), you will find that you are not as screwed up as you think you are. Those of you who think you're repulsive, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh, and one more thing: 40 isn't as old as it used to be.

(Actually, one more thing: these probably sounds like the ramblings of a naive, idealistic 23-year-old, but you can be damned sure that I've been just as depressed as anyone else in here.)

wergo

12-21-2005, 11:30 PM

Honestly, at some point you just have to suck it up and TRY something--anything--to get yourself out there interacting with people. I know it's hard--I'm INCREDIBLY ruminatory--but at this point, I realize that if I don't change my ways, I will die alone.

What do I say when I make an ass of myself? "Damnit." or sometimes even "DAMNIT!!! What the Hell was I THINKING!!! ARG!!!"

How do I get over my fuckups? It was HARD at first, but eventually I realized that EVERYONE makes social mistakes. Life is hard, and different things come more easily to some people than they do to others. I (and a lot of others in this thread) have to start being more proactive. Don't just sit on your ass and complain/ruminate about your problems--the only way you're going to nip this in the bud is to put yourself into some kind of social situation and start interacting with people. It doesn't matter who you start with, just work on your skills until you're at least slightly confident that you're ready to progress into other situations (e.g., group interactions to one-on-one conversations). This skill-building process is not likely to be easy, but it's definitely rewarding.

IT ISN'T TOO LATE to start the process. If your experience is anything like mine (I realize this obviously isn't the case for some of you), you will find that you are not as screwed up as you think you are. Those of you who think you're repulsive, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, it's hardly prophecy if it comes AFTER two and a half decades of chronic rejection.

"Put yourself into some kind of social situation" - Can you be more specific? I ran out of ideas in this area myself some time in the mid-80s, and I just got exhausted trying the same things over and over hoping for different results.

Mochalatte

12-22-2005, 12:04 AM

"Put yourself into some kind of social situation" - Can you be more specific? I ran out of ideas in this area myself some time in the mid-80s, and I just got exhausted trying the same things over and over hoping for different results.

What sounds like a fun social situation to you?

I know it's a cliche, but it happens to be true. If you're only doing things in the hope that it will "land you" someone, that shows. Know what kind of man is the most attractive? The kind who loves his life and is so busy living it that he seems oblivious as to whether or not a woman is looking. Really!

Ask the people you know who are paired up in a serious relationship. I'll bet you that more than half of them met their partner accidentally. It just happens when you're full of life. Your life.

I said before that I'd met my late husband skiing, and that he died three years ago. I didn't ever want to meet anyone or date again. After about a year in my group therapy, a support group for spouses of police officers killed on the job, I met the man I'm seeing now. You'd better believe that neither of us was "looking." It happened naturally.

Do you like your life? Are you engaged in hobbies and with friends? Are you learning something new most of the time? That's attractive. And more importantly, that kind of life makes you happier regardless of how long it takes for you to meet someone.

Sorry to sound so preachy.

gnradd21

12-22-2005, 03:17 AM

What exactly happened when you tried the dating services, Wergo? Was it something online like match.com? I can't believe you couldn't find any decent single women in all of Toronto. And I seriously doubt you're repulsive. You come across as quite well-spoken and pretty funny. You sound fine in the looks department too, so I really don't understand what your problem's been either. Maybe you're just approaching women at awkward times or places and it comes off too aggressive. What do you do in your spare time? Anything that would get you out among other potential singles?

Mocha says it a lot better than I could, but for all of you guys the only way you'll get results is to at least make some small changes in your life. That's a big "duh" I know, but really, if you're just living the same day in, day out robotic routine, nothing will change and obviously years are going to fly by and you'll just get more withdrawn and embarrassed about your situation. Try and improve your connections with the outside world, explore your hobbies and just make sure to get out among the living when you're not working. If you're (even unintentionally) isolating yourself you're just going to get more and more depressed.

This thread makes me feel sad that as a female I almost expect guys to approach me and initiate things, whether it's just for a friendship or an actual date. I never realized how hard it is for some guys and I wish I felt more comfortable making the first move. My boyfriend is pretty shy but for whatever reason he got the courage to ask me out. I had been hoping he would, so I'm really thankful he got the nerve to do what I couldn't. :D

I'm sure you'll all laugh whenever you do finally meet someone and get the first time out of the way. Seriously...don't give up guys. I'm sure you cross paths with plenty of single women every day who'd like to get to know you. As long as you're trying and giving yourself a chance, that's a start. :)

greg9x

12-22-2005, 05:29 AM

Ok you guys are gonna have to post pics of yourselves (never thought i'd say that for guys..) and then people can try to evaluate your appeal from there.... maybe you do give off a creepy vibe or something, maybe you go after the wrong type of women, maybe you say the wrong things, but at least you realize something isn't right... if your willing to work on it then maybe you can get something going. If you just want to be 'you' and not make any adjustments then things are probably going to go as they have been.

The thing is, there just isn't any part of society that helps the process. There are no singles bars outside of TV and movies (I spend five or six nights a week in clubs and the few times the bouncer lets me go in, all I ever find is college students (and a few high school kids with fake IDs), and most of them are already on dates; they're not alone. And they certainly don't want some dirty old man bothering them.) and there is nothing in the media in the way of advice for singles regarding how to meet; just ads for dating services and online personals (and, oh yeah, the "how to pick up chicks"/TJ Mackey-type stuff. have you ever read 'The Game'? that stuff is scary.). Everyone desperate to take advantage of desperate, lonely guys, nothing to actually help.

Why don't bouncers let you in ?? That's a warning sign to me that maybe somethings not kosher about you.... if that's the case you need to identify what that is and work on it !!
Bars are hard for meeting quality people but you should be able to meet someone... Don't get hung up on age, it's self defeating... yeah some girls don't like us 'dirty old men' (i'm 37) but plenty don't care, I get as many 19 year olds hitting on me as 39 year olds...but I don't look my age, if you act/feel old people will treat you as such. But also there are bars for the older set (mid 30's and up) maybe you should be trying out those places instead of the younger clubs.
Why do you feel everyone's desperate to take advatage of you ?? Don't make yourself out to be a victim ! No, the 'pick-up girls' books don't have all the answers but some probably have a few basic tips that you could use.

The girl posters are trying to be nice... i'm gonna say that yeah, probably something is wrong with you... will need more information to determine what it is..

Oraphus

12-22-2005, 11:53 AM

Well, it's hardly prophecy if it comes AFTER two and a half decades of chronic rejection.

"Put yourself into some kind of social situation" - Can you be more specific? I ran out of ideas in this area myself some time in the mid-80s, and I just got exhausted trying the same things over and over hoping for different results.
I have to agree with some of the above posters. If you have been really trying and can't get as much as a date in 25+ years and dont have any friends, you're doing something wrong... it's that simple.
Re evaluate your approach, speaking mannor, behavior, look, etc. you need to be willing to change, which i can understand is hard at late 20's and i am sure much harder at 40, but never the less you dont have a choice.
And going to clubs at 40, well, simply put you're out of your elemment. When i saw ~40 y old single guys at hip hop/house type clubs, i automatically sought of the "dirty old man" description.
You have to understand that unless you're extremely rich/powerfull you will not be getting girls in their 20's which is main age range at most clubs.
At your age you will most likely attract women in the mid 30s to mid 40's range. Majority of them at this point have been in a lot of relationships, maybe marriages, have a high probability of having kids, etc. Keep all of this in mind and think of places women like this would hang out at.

wergo

12-22-2005, 04:27 PM

You have to understand that unless you're extremely rich/powerfull you will not be getting girls in their 20's which is main age range at most clubs.
At your age you will most likely attract women in the mid 30s to mid 40's range. Majority of them at this point have been in a lot of relationships, maybe marriages, have a high probability of having kids, etc. Keep all of this in mind and think of places women like this would hang out at.

Well, yes, exactly, but how does one discover where women like this hang out?

I fully understand that, by trying to socialize where I'm not wanted I'm sabotaging my own chances, but it seems to be that or nothing.

Why don't bouncers let you in ?? That's a warning sign to me that maybe somethings not kosher about you.... if that's the case you need to identify what that is and work on it !!
Bars are hard for meeting quality people but you should be able to meet someone...

Well, they don't really let anybody in who isn't either a hot young girl or her boyfriend. It's not just me; it's anyone who's on their own. That's what bouncers are there FOR: to separate the beautiful people from the undesirables.

What exactly happened when you tried the dating services, Wergo? Was it something online like match.com?

Lord, I could write a book. The two main evildoers were Together and Lavalife. Together took my money and, only after a couple of years of frustration, finally admitted that they had a 40:1 ratio of men:women as subscribers. I would get a referral (just a phone # and a name in the mail) about once every three or four months and call the woman up, only to discover that she was receiving ten or so referrals EVERY WEEK. Plus, they just matched indiscriminately. Over a four year period I managed to have five minute phone conversations with only three women; one only dated black men, one only dated devout Roman Catholics and one only dated men who made a minimum of $100,000/year. I think they just randomly picked names out of a hat; there were so many male members and so few female members that they just couldn't do any different. What a ripoff.

Lavalife weren't any better. I haven't used it since it moved from voicemail to the internet, but, from what I've read (see http://www.edatereview.com/011002displayreviews.aspx ) things haven't changed much. Almost all of the female ads are either entirely phony or else long since abandoned. Actually, any of the reviews on that site are worth reading ( http://www.edatereview.com ) - just click on "read reviews" to see the other complaints - I'm not the exception to the rule, it seems like almost everyone is angry at personal sites.

This thread makes me feel sad that as a female I almost expect guys to approach me and initiate things, whether it's just for a friendship or an actual date. I never realized how hard it is for some guys and I wish I felt more comfortable making the first move. My boyfriend is pretty shy but for whatever reason he got the courage to ask me out. I had been hoping he would, so I'm really thankful he got the nerve to do what I couldn't.

I have to ask; where did you go where you felt comfortable having guys approach you cold? Because all of the women I've ever tried talking to in ghrocery stores or video stores or in the subway are FAR from thankful when I even as much as make eye contact and smile. Usually I consider myself lucky if they just give me a disgusted look and walk away. Courage is just arrogance if it never results in success.

Do you like your life? Are you engaged in hobbies and with friends? Are you learning something new most of the time? That's attractive. And more importantly, that kind of life makes you happier regardless of how long it takes for you to meet someone.

No, I really don't. I loathe my life. And that everything I've ever done to try and impove things has failed miserably just makes things worse. Considering the life experiences (or lack of them) since puberty, I'd have to be psychopathic not to be negatively influenced by them. Honestly, at this point, I am sick and tired of all my interests. Everything I used to love, whether it's music or movies or literature or politics or science is just corrupted by the chronic loneliness. Toronto has an unlimited supply of things to do and I am just fed up doing them alone. The attitude you describe is how I started out back in the 80s. That milk has since long gone sour. And, frankly, it didn't help much back when I had it. That's how I started down this path in the first place.

Know what kind of man is the most attractive? The kind who loves his life and is so busy living it that he seems oblivious as to whether or not a woman is looking. Really!

Maybe, but I bet that for every one guy you notice like that and are attracted to, there are a hundred who are never noticed by anyone. When you only hear the succes stories it's easy to forget that that's just the tip of the iceberg, and the rest is buried underwater.

It's a moot point anyway, because it's kind of like telling a sick person that they'd be better off being healthy. It's not like it's something you can control. You can't just use force of will to make youself love your life. That's why crack and television are still so popular. I'm not sure that I can buy that I SHOULD be happy. I have no social life, no sex life and no reason to believe anything will change in the forseeable future. Add to that the nightly gauntlet of rejection (mayhap I should use a Sisyphus reference instead?), and what kind of horrible personality would I have to have that I WOULD love this? Isn't it a sign of mental health that I reconize when I'm ankle deep, and upside down, in shit?

lucasorion

12-22-2005, 05:45 PM

There are people suffering through a lot worse than no sex life in this world. I've wallowed in self-pity before, and there is a kind of satisfaction in it - predicting that things won't change and then fulfilling that prediction, you feel like you understand the world (at least the world that you've created for yourself). I think the first step out of this cycle is to stop thinking that the world is doing it to you and admit that you are in control. You may feel like you aren't, but that is just a cop out, a continuance of the cycle. I'm not sure there is anything anyone can say to provide the catalyst for change, maybe some Indian guru, because the crossroads is always inside your mind - not in the outside world, and it is waiting for you to take the other path.

natevines

12-22-2005, 05:50 PM

16 here and still a virgin, though I've come close to doing it. I hope to do it this year.

wergo

12-22-2005, 06:27 PM

I think the first step out of this cycle is to stop thinking that the world is doing it to you and admit that you are in control. You may feel like you aren't, but that is just a cop out, a continuance of the cycle. I'm not sure there is anything anyone can say to provide the catalyst for change, maybe some Indian guru, because the crossroads is always inside your mind - not in the outside world, and it is waiting for you to take the other path.

"The world is doing it to you"? I'm not sure I understand the inference. I'm talking about recognition of a pattern of rejection by separate individuals, each with their own free will. I'm not anthopomorphosizing society, and I certainly am not suggesting paranoia. If anything, the diametric opposite.

I acknowledge that I'm in control up to the point where the other person's free will takes over. It's not like a TV show or a movie where one writer can provide dialogue and motivation for two different characters. How can I exert more control than that?

PacMan2006

12-22-2005, 06:36 PM

Maybe the situation is the places you are meeting these women. I mean, you have to identify situations that people would be more receptive to you. I'm sure as hell no expert, but trying to get a woman at a grocery store? She is in there for a specific reason--to get groceries and get out. Everybody is. It's just not a place where one thinks or even wants to meet someone else.

The subway? Again, people just want to get to work or get home. No muss no fuss. Now granted, I'm sure there are some exceptions. If you are in the grocery store, and you are in the checkout and the girl is making some comments on your items and/or flirting, you might be getting a good vibe from her. But if you are in the meat department and a woman is trying to decide on hamburger or steak for dinner, and you come up saying "So...shop here often?" it's not going to turn out well nine times out of ten.

wergo

12-22-2005, 06:52 PM

Maybe the situation is the places you are meeting these women. I mean, you have to identify situations that people would be more receptive to you.

Yes, exactly. So, umm, any suggestions as to where it WOULD be appropriate?

'Cause I (if this hasn't been made abundantly apparent) haven't got clue one.

Darknite39

12-22-2005, 07:30 PM

The reason I used the generic "social situation" earlier is that there are a zillion places to meet people (i.e., women). It's hard to narrow down specific places/situations since I don't know anyone here and thus where you all might "fit in" (even if you don't necessarily think you will). As one example, and maybe I missed this in another of your posts, but have you tried going to a music shop and chatting with people looking at music you're fond of?

lucasorion

12-22-2005, 08:55 PM

"The world is doing it to you"? I'm not sure I understand the inference. I'm talking about recognition of a pattern of rejection by separate individuals, each with their own free will. I'm not anthopomorphosizing society, and I certainly am not suggesting paranoia. If anything, the diametric opposite.

I acknowledge that I'm in control up to the point where the other person's free will takes over. It's not like a TV show or a movie where one writer can provide dialogue and motivation for two different characters. How can I exert more control than that?

Well, either you recognize that their is something in your approach to the world/women that is the root of your situation, or you think there is something about the world/women that is external to you and is the root. You speak as if you believe it is the latter, with all the fatalism in your tone - so it doesn't matter if you do pay lip service to the idea that it is within you to change it, or sometimes act like you believe. --"Never mistake motion for action"--

And earlier you said "That's how I started down this path in the first place", which I think is the wrong way of thinking about this. You haven't traveled down some long path in the wrong direction. There is no need to backtrack just to get back to the point where you can start down the right path. I am alone today because I have chosen to be that way. Not the same way as I chose to have a PB&J sandwich for lunch, but because in the attitudes I had about my place in the world (or outside it), I sealed my fate in any situation where I could have taken the step forward. The change has to happen within before it manifests in your life. Personally, I think spirituality can be a huge help when you sit down and ask yourself the questions you need to ask - but any approach that includes reason and self-compassion can work to dispel the hope-nullifying attitudes which perpetuate this kind of cycle. I'm only starting to climb out myself, it doesn't happen in a day. At times in the last couple years, when I felt particularly bummed, I thought of a train metaphor - "I missed the train, and it only goes by once." But then I started to think about that...Why would the train (a social life, a normal place in the outside world) only go by once? Why would it even be moving away from me? What an ego-centric way to look at my place in the universe, like the train cares enough about me in particular to make itself no longer available. The world is moving in every direction at once, from countless starting points, and so far I've been standing still because I was waiting for it to pick me up.

Decadance

12-22-2005, 08:57 PM

Of the past 4 girls I have slept with I have met from varied different situations. First one I met on a web forum somewhat like this, not geared to dating at all, and honestly I wasn't looking. We dated for 2 years. Next girl I met at my old job a couple months before the previous girl and I broke up. We hooked up about a month after the old relationship and stayed together for around 8 months on and off before it began just being a sex and friendship thing. A girl came up in the middle of the other relationship who I went to school with. We had an extremely fun 2 weeks before she went nutso on me. The current g/f of 7 months I met on a business trip at a bar in Reno. Moral being, it isn't so much the situation. Of course there are places and situations where women will be more receptive to being "picked up" although from my experience, only one of the women I was with was met in one of those situations. From my happenings its about who you are, how you are, and what they want. I like to consider my self fairly funny, and use humor to get the "in" With the girl from the forum, she needed a friend more than someone who was trying to hit on her, we talked for 4 months before we even met and started dating, just the way it worked out. The ones from work and school respectively knew me well, knew who I was, so they were naturally more comfortable around me. My current g/f was just a pretty college girl at a bar who I stood beside while ordering a drink, made a few jokes and was in.

If your having trouble meeting someone, my advice is take a look at your appearance and your personality. You need to be comfortable being you before anyone will be interested in you. Self confidence and the way you carry yourself say volumes.

wergo

12-22-2005, 09:14 PM

Would that it were easy to self-analyse. Maybe there is something painfully obvious to everyone else that makes their asshole detector go off, but it's nothing I can identify or affect by myself. Genuine self confidence comes from practical experience, not from wishful thinking.

lucasorion

12-22-2005, 10:47 PM

Genuine self confidence comes from practical experience, not from wishful thinking.

sorry to be abrupt, but are you in a position to make definitive statements about what leads to self confidence and what is just wishful thinking? My practical experience in the last ten years has not been extensive, I was around girls in high school a lot more than I've been since, but my self-confidence and sense of self are leaps and bounds beyond where they were then. The work that I've done, the progress I've made, has all been internal.

wergo

12-23-2005, 12:40 AM

sorry to be abrupt, but are you in a position to make definitive statements about what leads to self confidence and what is just wishful thinking? My practical experience in the last ten years has not been extensive, I was around girls in high school a lot more than I've been since, but my self-confidence and sense of self are leaps and bounds beyond where they were then. The work that I've done, the progress I've made, has all been internal.

No, it's more of a guess than a definitive statement.

I'm really not sure I understand, though. You developed a sense of self confidence, on your own, purely through force of will? I can't begin to imagine how that would be achieved, at least by me.

I'm not sure that I'm not getting conflicting messages here, though. Is the suggestion that, if I can develop a better sense of self-confidence, I will somehow be able to come up with more appropriate venues to approach women on my own, or that I will be more successful in approaching them in places that currently appear to be inappropriate or that I simply won't care any more and sex will no longer be a concern?

ETA: It occurs to me that this may just be a definition problem. What exactly do you mean by "confidence"?

skiblet

12-23-2005, 01:24 AM

holy freakin moses-

How have i missed this thread!? I just now opened it, and started skimming, and then went all the way back to the beginning of this tome and read the entire thing.

My comments are mainly directed at Wergo:

Dude, wow. .. i just dont even know where to begin. From reading all of your posts, you need to seek the help of a professional therapist or counselor, and not from total strangers on a DVD forum. I really do think there has been a lot of sincere, and genuine advice, but from reading your posts - but , ... you need to seek the help of a professional.

Ok, my advice. And this is completely sincere and genuine. DONT worry about dating right now. Dont worry about sex. Dont worry about hitting on girls in the grocery store, etc.. WORK ON YOU. Work on learning to LOVE YOURSELF. If you hate yourself, and your self image is a ticking time bomb, then any woman in the world is going to pick up on that vibe and it reduces your chance to absolute ZERO.

Some other poster said it exactly correct when he/she said - the biggest turn on to a woman is a man who loves his own life, enjoys life, and is so busy enjoying it that he can barely be bothered if she calls or not. Or whatever, something along those lines.

You have to start with YOU. Learn to love who you are, and to be self reliant in your own journey and your own happiness. Once you do this, then you will put out that vibe and you will attract people. Take baby steps to do it. Buy yourself a new shirt. A new cologne. A new whatever. Do things that make you feel good (better) about being you.

Ok, last comment. To anyone in this thread thats a virgin, and youve been wondering your whole life what all the fuss is about. . . Your wasting a LOT of time and energy wondering. Its nice and all, but i bet once you did it the first time, youd say - I waited 30-40 years for this !???? Its nice, and its fun, but it sure isnt worth waiting your whole life for. I can barely be bothered to sit through dinner and/or a movie to try and get in a girls pants.
YMMV.

dvdordie

12-23-2005, 02:00 AM

Very interesting thread. :)

greg9x

12-23-2005, 05:14 AM

Well, they don't really let anybody in who isn't either a hot young girl or her boyfriend. It's not just me; it's anyone who's on their own. That's what bouncers are there FOR: to separate the beautiful people from the undesirables.

Ok... but you are going to the wrong type of club then. You have to have major 'game' to compete in the snobbish clubs like that, which I think we can agree you don't have (not an insult, just stating facts). Also the women who tend to go to those clubs are probably out of your league, at least for now. Are you the guy who keeps going after the 9's and 10's when he should be going after the 4's and 5's ? Find a more casual club/bar, maybe something with a band cause then you have something to do (watch the band) rather than look desperate looking at girls...

Skiblet had some good advice (along with others)... You seem to be really down on yourself which is going to manifest externally and continue to keep people away.. I agree, doing stuff by yourself all the time sucks...i've gone through phases like that, but I kept doing it because you have to be out there to be able to meet anyone. You have to be at least somewhat happy with just yourself before you can attract others to you..

Try one of those makeover salons, the people that work there can help you make the most of what you got, give you an idea if your style/look is a major holdback.

Practice conversational skills... at least observe how others interact and compare that to how you do... try just small chit chat conversations with people without feeling the need to 'connect' with them, eventually the small chit chat's turn into more meaningful conversations but don't force it...

Learn to laugh at yourself, don't take things so seriously... the most powerful thing you can do to attract most women is to make them laugh, even ugly guys get girls if they can make them laugh.

At least give us a blow by blow description of how you tried to talk to a girl... how you approached her, what you said, how she reacted etc..

lucasorion

12-23-2005, 05:34 AM

Learn to laugh at yourself, don't take things so seriously... the most powerful thing you can do to attract most women is to make them laugh, even ugly guys get girls if they can make them laugh.

I think that really can't be over-stressed.
I know enough to know that if I'm looking at like I'm on a Chuck Norris, "Missing in Action" mission - ("Missing Some Action"?:)) - that is going to come through and ring the alarm bells in her head.

wergo

12-23-2005, 04:37 PM

Dude, wow. .. i just dont even know where to begin. From reading all of your posts, you need to seek the help of a professional therapist or counselor, and not from total strangers on a DVD forum. I really do think there has been a lot of sincere, and genuine advice, but from reading your posts - but , ... you need to seek the help of a professional.

Eh. I tried the therapy route and really wasn't impressed. (Ha! Therapists always suggest that I should seek advice from people out in the real world - find out what they do. This is as close as I can get.) I really don't want to come off like Tom Cruise or anything, but I just don't see Elavil as the answer to all of life's problems. And paying $100 (and up) an hour week after week just so I can tell the therapist the same thing over and over again seems counter-productive.

Depression is an inappropriate response to stimuli. If things are going well in your life and you're still miserable, then maybe help can be provided. If your life is an empty wasteland of social isolation and sexual frustration and you're unhappy about it, that's an APPROPRIATE response. Showing up week after week just to be asked "so, what happened this week?" and having nothing new to report just adds to the frustration. I'm wasting my time, his time and my money. Eventually, they just get frustrated that you don't have a probelm they're trained to deal with. "Are you SURE you weren't molested as a kid? hey, what about alcohol problems? anything there? no, huh? how about gambling?"

I go back to the earlier point I posted; the best advice I can get from therapy is that I'm sabotaging my own chances by using the most unlikely means to meet people. When I ask, "so, what SHOULD I be doing that would be more effective?" the only asswer that comes back is "well, that's something you need to work on." I really can't afford $100 a week (plus the cost of antidepressants) for that.

It would be nice if therapy solved the problem(s) (or at least addressed them) but, like any other branch of medicine, it's 95% diagnosis. Knowing WHY you're miserable and unhappy doesn't mean that they can help fix the problem.

Are there any professionals that actually deal with the practical aspects of socializing? (heck, even a Learning Annex course on how to meet people would be nice.) 'Cause I've never come across any. (Well, California has "life coaches" but I believe you have to be pretty rich to afford them. If $500/month for therapy is beyond my means, I assume they're out of the question.)

You have to start with YOU. Learn to love who you are, and to be self reliant in your own journey and your own happiness. Once you do this, then you will put out that vibe and you will attract people. Take baby steps to do it. Buy yourself a new shirt. A new cologne. A new whatever. Do things that make you feel good (better) about being you.

I'm not sure increasing my consumerism is gonna make me feel better about myself.

You're basically suggesting that I should completely divorce stimuli and response. I'd need an instruction manual for that. I've got a lifetime of being kicked in the face every time I attempted to get any attention or affection from other members of the human race to deal with. That doesn't just go away because you wish it to. What part of my life should I learn to love - the social isolation or the sexual frustration? Because, barring castration, they're not going away. And they eat at the soul without respite.

Lord, what I would give for even a three-second break from the social frustration. But it ain't gonna happen, not without some practical change.

I'm sure I am sending out a vibe (either desperation or depression or whatever), but I'm not at all sure that anyone's paying enough attention to notice it. Not unless I actually approach them. Which, even if I were self-satisfied and confident, would, by itself, indicate desperation and neediness. The simple act of asking a total stranger out puts one in the defensive position.

At least give us a blow by blow description of how you tried to talk to a girl... how you approached her, what you said, how she reacted etc..

Depends on the situation. If it's a coffee shop, I usually pick up a paper and use the crossword puzzle as an excuse to talk to strangers. I never wear a watch or an iPod or sunglasses and often ask for directions I don't need. Bookstores and video stores get requests for reading/viewing suggestions. In clothing stores I usually just walk up to a woman and say that I'm trying to pick out a present for a relative and, being a guy, need some advice as to what's stylish. On the subway, there's usually a delay, or a power failure, or a nearby passenger who's being annoying, or I can ask about a book they're reading or what they're listenig to. I kinda play it by ear and improvise.

How they react? Most often, they just ignore me entirely or else give a one-syllable response and walk off. Occasionally (two, maybe three times a year?), they'll make an effort to be friendly, but it never goes any further (all I need to do is whip out "I have nothing to do for awhile. Do you wanna go get a cup of coffee?" and they get that look on their faces you usually see in Vietnam movies when someone steps on a landmine. At that point, they're always VERY quick to mention a boyfriend or husband who's about to pick them up.).

Night school classes or volunteer work rarely (okay, never) has any single women, so I usually use those venues in an effort to just make male friends, but anything along the lines of "you wanna go out for a beer after class?" is uniformly met with "no, I'm going home to my wife and kids."

auto

12-23-2005, 06:35 PM

mosquitobite

12-23-2005, 06:39 PM

As someone with confidence (even when I was a stupid youth :lol: ) I can tell you what I get the best traction out of and I think it would help you as well too.

There's nothing better for one's confidence than getting out in the world and learning something new. Whether it be physical or mental.

Pick like 10 things you want to accomplish learning in life before you die. If you accomplish all those, pick some more.

For every new skill/lesson you learn, you feel better inside. Knowledge really is power, and a HUGE confidence booster. Even stuff that seems silly, if you tackle them and succeed, you will notice a boost in confidence.

I'm going to be a tough mom when I have kids. None of the namby pamby allowing a kid not to try something because they cry and don't want to. No picky eaters either :lol: Seriously, for me I truly believe the best way to confidence/self esteem is to TRY something. And KEEP trying until you succeed. It's the sense of accomplishment that gives you confidence.

An example in my life? I am NOT athletic at all. I'm 5'1" tall. I SUCK at sports, K? :lol: Well at 19, the guy I was dating at the time liked to ski. He & his friends talked me into going with them to the slopes. He spent like all of 15 min on the bunny slope with me before he was ready to hit the big slopes. I couldn't stay straight or stop! And he wanted me to fly 50mph down some hill and hit a tree? The next time I fell over he started yelling at me to get up. I started crying. (I laugh now) I told him "I can't!!" He yelled YOU CAN'T BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU CAN'T! NOW GET UP!" I told him to go to hell & leave me alone. He did. Well, I taught myself how to snow plow shortly thereafter and even figured out the rope pull. :lol: By the end of the night I was hitting the family slopes. I LOVE to ski now.

Moral of the story?

Never give up. You only can't because you THINK you can't. ;)

Get out there and try something new. For YOU. Not for some imaginary girl. Live your life to the fullest, and I guarantee you everything else will fall into place.

Bandoman

12-23-2005, 07:17 PM

Well at 19, the guy I was dating at the time liked to ski. He & his friends talked me into going with them to the slopes. He spent like all of 15 min on the bunny slope with me before he was ready to hit the big slopes. I couldn't stay straight or stop! And he wanted me to fly 50mph down some hill and hit a tree? The next time I fell over he started yelling at me to get up. I started crying. (I laugh now) I told him "I can't!!" He yelled YOU CAN'T BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU CAN'T! NOW GET UP!" I told him to go to hell & leave me alone. He did. Well, I taught myself how to snow plow shortly thereafter and even figured out the rope pull. :lol: By the end of the night I was hitting the family slopes. I LOVE to ski now.

That guy sounds like a complete dick. Good for you for perservering, though, mosquitobite. :up:

skiblet

12-23-2005, 07:24 PM

Wergo,

What do you look like ? Your posts are extremly self destructive and you pretty much win the oscar for bad self image.

But id be willing to bet my next paycheck, you just look like an ordinary guy. I know your not gonna be brad pitt, or tom cruise, but just from reading your posts, it sounds like all of this is in your head.

I PROMISE YOU the world doesnt see you, the way you see yourself. Self Image, is such a vital key ingrediant to your happiness. And thats why i said to take baby steps towards being able to accept yourself. I didnt neccessarily mean buy yourself stuff (material stuff), i just meant do a litlte something here and there to slowly build your confidence day by day. ( i just said buy yourself something nice , because when i buy new shirt or shoes it encourages me to go out and show off)

Your piling on mountains and mountains of self destructive energy on yourself and just like the therapist said, YOU ARE sabotaging your own success. Success is 99 % mental. Its how you Feel inside, about who you are, that will ultimately guide you through life, be it good or bad.

its not about what you look like dude, I see all kind of ugly ass people out there that are successful, or are with an attractive women, or are CEO of their company (bill gates), or that have hundreds of friends, or are rock and roll stars, etc.. etc.. etc.. All you have to do is go to a crowded place and its easy to be amazed at the varietys of people that get matched up together.

Dont give up on it man. We have all been there to one degree or another. Get people to help you or inspire you and show your the ropes. and most of all GET OUT THERE and work at it. :)

Bandoman

12-23-2005, 07:27 PM

Maybe he is Tom Cruise. That might be the problem.

Nick Danger

12-23-2005, 07:27 PM

Mosquitobite: I am a clumsy person. I learned to juggle, and I had a harder time of it than all but one of the people I taught after that. Most people figure it out in an hour. It took me weeks.

I also learned to talk to women in my mid-30s. That was an order of magnitude harder.

Wergo: you obviously got the wrong therapist. If a car mechanic treated you that way ("I don't know: what do you think is wrong with your car?") You'd dump him in a hurry. But you wouldn't give up on mechanics. Most people need to try more than one therapists before they find a good match. I just got lucky on the first one.

And yes, you're sending out some kind of vibe. Without meeting you I don't know what it is. But from your posts, it sounds like you walk through life with your hands balled into fists and your jaw clenched. Unless you're significantly smaller than the women you meet, that will scare them off.

I concede that being angry because you don't get treated well is a difficult position to break out of.

mosquitobite

12-24-2005, 07:11 AM

That guy sounds like a complete dick. Good for you for perservering, though, mosquitobite. :up:

I had a history of not dating "the nice guys". :lol: Even married one of the bad boys. I was gonna change him, dontcha know?

Luckily, this time around I got smart! :)

Nick, I bet you're proud of the juggling, aren't you! We did Barnum for our spring musical my senior year of high school. I worked back stage because I couldn't learn how to juggle! :lol:

wergo

12-24-2005, 09:43 AM

wergo: I think the problem is you have a really bad attitude. Change that and women will find you more attractive. You shoot down every piece of advice that people offer.

I know, I know, you've tried it all before and it hasn't worked. Here's my advice:

Try again.

How does the saying go? Get busy living or get busy dying.

Well, to be fair, I don't think I've been so much shooting down advice so much as asking how to implement it. Being satisfied with my life isn't something I see as any more feasable as, say, being a rich rock star. (Though, I will admit that the ornery side of me can't help but point out that I spent my teens and twenties being fairly happy, and it didn't help attract women or friends then, consarn it.) I guess it's the old AA definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results) that puts up the biggest barrier. If I'm gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again, I'd at least like to do it in a different way.

Sometimes it's not even WHAT you're failing at that kills so much as the failure itself.

And KEEP trying until you succeed. It's the sense of accomplishment that gives you confidence.

Exactly. And it's the lack of that accomplishment that makes the confidence so difficult.

I'm still trying (not just with women, but other non-thread related things as well) but sometimes the most important one is, well, the most important.

solipsta

12-24-2005, 12:57 PM

to all that are struggling: do you believe that your life will ever turn around and "get better"?

greg9x

12-24-2005, 01:08 PM

Depends on the situation. If it's a coffee shop, I usually pick up a paper and use the crossword puzzle as an excuse to talk to strangers. I never wear a watch or an iPod or sunglasses and often ask for directions I don't need. Bookstores and video stores get requests for reading/viewing suggestions. In clothing stores I usually just walk up to a woman and say that I'm trying to pick out a present for a relative and, being a guy, need some advice as to what's stylish. On the subway, there's usually a delay, or a power failure, or a nearby passenger who's being annoying, or I can ask about a book they're reading or what they're listenig to. I kinda play it by ear and improvise.

How they react? Most often, they just ignore me entirely or else give a one-syllable response and walk off. Occasionally (two, maybe three times a year?), they'll make an effort to be friendly, but it never goes any further (all I need to do is whip out "I have nothing to do for awhile. Do you wanna go get a cup of coffee?" and they get that look on their faces you usually see in Vietnam movies when someone steps on a landmine. At that point, they're always VERY quick to mention a boyfriend or husband who's about to pick them up.).

Night school classes or volunteer work rarely (okay, never) has any single women, so I usually use those venues in an effort to just make male friends, but anything along the lines of "you wanna go out for a beer after class?" is uniformly met with "no, I'm going home to my wife and kids."

Well not sure where to go from here... maybe you are one of 'those' guys that women just aren't comfortable around, i've known a few in my life. One thing those pick up books should help you with is reading 'signs' from girls... body language, things they say, are they giving you 'open' or 'closed' signals... if a girl is giving you 'closed' signals you can bet she's gonna turn you down for coffee. Couple ways to look at it though... yes, you have to play the numbers and meet as many women as you can, it may take meeting 30 women to get 5 numbers that result in 1 date. But on the other hand, if you don't have good social skills or appeal thier probably all gonna go running.

Definatly sounds like you had the wrong therapist... maybe try another, yeah it might be money, but isn't it worth it for you to change your sitiuation ?
Again, look into getting a look/style makeover, those shows have some pretty amazing transformations, that can effect how people percieve you. (again, post a picture so we see if that is a holdback) Also look into a class or something that works on your conversational skills, maybe there's a problem with your manner of speaking.
Guess what i'm saying is divide yourself up into sections like: looks, style, speaking, hobbies/activities, self confidence, etc... and evaluate yourself in that area and try to make small improvements and eventually you'll improve the whole package.
Really we're all trying to help here.

wergo

12-24-2005, 04:42 PM

(again, post a picture so we see if that is a holdback)

Sorry. Apart from my driver's license, I haven't had a photograph taken since I was a kid. Don't own a camera (what would I use one for?) or a scanner.

All I can tell you is that I'm blonde (though I only have about half my hair left at this point) and wear glasses. 5'10, 130lb. No tattoos or piercings, clean shaven. I tend to dress in monochrome. (pretty much exactly the kind of look you'd expect from a guy who tries to pick up women in art galleries and midnight showings of 'Eraserhead' - put a glass of chardonnay in my hand and I could pose for a book jacket.)

to all that are struggling: do you believe that your life will ever turn around and "get better"?

Really not sure. Having tried everything I can think to do by myself (it's not like I have a bunch of friends who are gonna all of a sudden say "hey, we're gonna get you laid" (damn, that '40 Year Old Virgin' film really wasn't very accurate or helpful, was it? maybe I should rent the DVD and see if there's any suggestions in the bonus materials or commentary?) or throw a party than I'm invited to or something) I can't help but think that the only thing that is gonna change at this point would be the result of blind luck. Something MIGHT get better, but I doubt that I could replicate the scenario if it didn't (and when does it ever?) work out perfectly the first time. At 42, I really feel like I've missed the boat on the required life experiences.

Testy

12-24-2005, 08:29 PM

to all that are struggling: do you believe that your life will ever turn around and "get better"?

While not ruling anything out, like Wergo said at 40 I feel like I'm so far behind that there's no way I'll ever get caught up. Chronologically I'm 40 years old, but I'm still stuck at about 12-13 as far as relationships go.

I have no idea what to do, what to say, etc. I've missed out on 25 years of experience that virtually everyone else on the planet already has. I have serious doubts that an old dog like me can learn enough new tricks at this point to ever "fit in" with the rest of society.

And to make things even worse, tonight my younger sister announces that she's engaged. I'm happy for her, but it just shines the spotlight even brighter on me, and my social incompetence. I'm sure that my parents are truly disappointed with me, but at least one of their kids is finally getting married.

mosquitobite

12-24-2005, 08:43 PM

Wergo, have you tried bulking up at all? Maybe pick up some lean muscle? 130lbs is only 10lbs heavier than me and you're 9" taller! :eek:

The rest of your description doesn't sound bad at all, but given that women today usually have some meat on their bones most would not want to date a man who weighs less than them. (jmho)

:up: You do sound like you get out there, and your attempts sound just like what you need to do. I would follow greg9X's advice about the book on body language.

Also, you didn't answer, but are you a man that goes for the 8-10 range chick when you should maybe be in the 5-6 range? :shrug: Women can be very shallow, especially ones that have no trouble getting a date. Avoid them.

lucasorion

12-24-2005, 10:23 PM

Guess I'll be the first to answer that request for pictures:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6539/menobeard1jl.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=menobeard1jl.jpg)
I shaved my beard to take this picture, but it was time anyway - I looked like I'd already moved into the remote cabin in Montana.

solipsta

12-24-2005, 11:54 PM

Really not sure. Having tried everything I can think to do by myself (it's not like I have a bunch of friends who are gonna all of a sudden say "hey, we're gonna get you laid" (damn, that '40 Year Old Virgin' film really wasn't very accurate or helpful, was it? maybe I should rent the DVD and see if there's any suggestions in the bonus materials or commentary?) or throw a party than I'm invited to or something) I can't help but think that the only thing that is gonna change at this point would be the result of blind luck. Something MIGHT get better, but I doubt that I could replicate the scenario if it didn't (and when does it ever?) work out perfectly the first time. At 42, I really feel like I've missed the boat on the required life experiences.
You sound as though you're almost content to just go on doing what you've been doing and waiting for that "blind luck". I know you want practical advice, but the thing is that the same things don't work for everyone. It's really about the whole "if you don't like yourself, why would others?"

I saw some comments about medication and while I agree that it isn't a way to cure your life, it's a way to help you get moving. It's a way to see things differently and move out of the fog. And then therapy...therapy really helps. But you have to work at it and if it's not working with one therapist, you have to move on. I went through 3 therapists before I found the one that got me moving. I found out that therapy isn't just about talking about what's going on in your life and in your past, it's about connecting your present situation to your past feelings. There's a fear or discomfort in there somewhere that's a wall to moving forward. You have to find the fear and see...no, you have to feel...that it just doesn't apply anymore...

solipsta

12-25-2005, 12:03 AM

While not ruling anything out, like Wergo said at 40 I feel like I'm so far behind that there's no way I'll ever get caught up. Chronologically I'm 40 years old, but I'm still stuck at about 12-13 as far as relationships go.

I have no idea what to do, what to say, etc. I've missed out on 25 years of experience that virtually everyone else on the planet already has. I have serious doubts that an old dog like me can learn enough new tricks at this point to ever "fit in" with the rest of society.
I can say from experience that you can grow up. I might not have been 40, but I really don't feel there's a difference. I made the decision that I was going to move forward and I did it. I cut off from the things that I saw as detrimental to my growth and practised and researched and filled my life with things that would help me grow (nicer clothing, medication, therapy, eating better, exercising, choosing the people I hang with wisely). And I have grown. I've gone from someone that just lets life happen to them to someone that will go out and make life happen. At least more than I used to. There's a lot of setbacks and time that I feel that I haven't made any progress at all, but I always reassert myself and get back on track. It's the hardest thing I've ever done and probably ever will do.

It is possible.

I'm sure that my parents are truly disappointed with me, but at least one of their kids is finally getting married.
Have you ever talked to them about it? You might be surprised. Something that I've found out is that most of the things that I assumed other people thought about me in my fog of self-hatred was pretty wrong.

Nightrider662

12-25-2005, 12:51 AM

I just don't see anything changing for me. If I could only re-do some things when I was younger, but it is to late for me. I didn't date in school and was really an outcast and thats really stayed with me my whole life. I withdrew and I don't know what to do about it. No woman wants to date a 40 year old virgin and I'd never get up the courage to ask any out. Sometimes I feel like a 20 year old because of my lack of experience but I look in the mirror and sure enough I'm 40. Ttime just got away from me.

dvd-4-life

12-25-2005, 04:53 AM

Parcher

12-25-2005, 06:13 AM

Lucasorion> looks are NOT holding you back, ie. you should definitely be able to get laid with how you look.

Wergo> Evolutionary theory has it that you have to "prove" yourself to females in order for them to want to have your baby. This applies to the whole game of getting laid/getting company in the sense that you have to stand out, you have to be able to OFFER them something.
You weigh 130 lbs. My advice to you is lift weights, put on muscle = boost in confidence = better attitude = female company.
When you approach a woman and she sees you're buff there is a good chance that she won't notice the bad things about you compared to if you were your 130 lb self.
This is really ment as good advice, I hope I am not sounding too harsh. But you'll be surprised what a big difference that weight can make.

greg9x

12-25-2005, 07:17 AM

And to all you virgins... there's quite a few women out there that would probably get off taking your virginity as long as your reasonably average. Something to look forward to if you just want to lose it, won't help on the dating/compainionship thing, but don't give up !

And yeah Wergo... 130 is awfully skinny for 5' 10"... alot of women like the sense of safety/security/domination when a man holds them, probably won't get that if they know they can throw you across the room. Plus at that weight they may get a "HIV/AIDS" vibe rather than a "Healthy thin" vibe. Are you a runner ? If you don't excersie, hitting the gym might be good for multiple reasons..put on a little mass and get the endorphines flowing .

Think Wergo said he did... but you all shower daily, wear clean clothes, etc correct ?? Seems most guys I knew with women problems didn't do these basic things...

wergo

12-25-2005, 01:56 PM

Too many guys here are hung up on the rejection part.I got to the point in my life that I wanted too do things for someone-met her online-we went on many dates and I still see her once in awhile.I wasn't afraid of rejection after being afraid of it all my life.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying we should just not accept the rejection and force women to go out with us, against their will?

to all that are struggling: do you believe that your life will ever turn around and "get better"?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "get better." After a lifetime of not being able to find anyone who's even willing to go out for a beer with me, I can't imagine coming across anyone who would ever fall in love with me. Or be willing to have sex with me. Or want to live with me.

I actually thought things might get better once I hit my 30s. With a 50% divorce rate, and the probablility of the women who didn't get married in the first place perhaps letting their standards become a little more elastic, I might have a shot. But that never happened. Or, if they're out there, I still have NO idea where to find them.

And to make things even worse, tonight my younger sister announces that she's engaged.

So, ummmm, where'd she meet him?

Wergo, have you tried bulking up at all? Maybe pick up some lean muscle? 130lbs is only 10lbs heavier than me and you're 9" taller!

Yeah, it's the nervous energy, I think. That, and the chronic insomnia. I burn off calories before I can absorb them. I have no shortage of muscle tissue, but I just can't seem to bulk up. Spent much of my teenage years trying to look more sports-worthy, but nothing changed. I thought once I hit middle age my body might relax a bit, but it doesn't seem to have happened.

I've tried following all of Dr. Nick Riviera's advice from the Simpsons episode where Homer gets on disability due to massive weight gain (heh. "And I find it ironic that, for once, dad's butt PREVENTED the release of toxic gas"), but it doesn't seem to have the same effect on me. :)

You sound as though you're almost content to just go on doing what you've been doing and waiting for that "blind luck". I know you want practical advice, but the thing is that the same things don't work for everyone. It's really about the