Who"s the oldest virgin here?

[ellone]

Wergo,

Perhaps you should look into finding a different place to work. You've mentioned that the people you work with don't go out after work. At my workplace we have a little social network that goes out for happy hour just about every week. People invite friends from other workplaces and you end up with quite a mix of people. I was an introvert when I first started working and would only talk to the people I knew, but being in these kinds of situations have made me much more comfortable having conversations with people I don't know.

[lucasorion]

Hey Luca...

One thing you wrote I found really interesting and possibly very true:

"I like to believe that people can change at any time of their life, but I also believe that you can't change until you set aside your ego."

Can you elaborate more on what you mean and/or why you believe it/arrived to that conclusion? I ask because I hadn't considered it, but think that that could be part of my problem to a certain degree, but I'll wait to see what you meant by it. Thanks.

Sure, I'll use myself as an example. When I started to isolate myself socially in my early teens, I built up this image of my peers as phony, shallow, and immature people who didn't have anything to offer me. I related better to adults, and felt like I was Jane Goodall, observing my peers like they were some simpler species of primates. As I got older, I became more humble and saw that I had been missing out, but I was too depressed to try to change the unhealthy solitary lifestyle I had created for myself. My ego still chimed in, telling me that the problem was mostly with the outside world, the rules and conventions which made someone like me feel like an outsider looking in. The change started when I accepted responsibility for the choices I made and the effects they had - and I didn't do it in a self-hating & blaming way. I mourned the lost time and the lost opportunities, and I felt compassion for myself, because I didn't deserve to feel so sad for so long.

When I said to wergo that he's trying to skip levels, this is what I meant. He tries to approach the issue intellectually, like it's a problem of logistics and strategy. There is a profoundly deep reason why his social life is where it is at, it isn't just a circumstance that befell him. There's a book called "Emotional Intelligence" which I intend to read sometime, and I think this is where many of us are lacking when we try to intellectually solve a problem that is rooted in emotions.

[wergo]

The change started when I accepted responsibility for the choices I made and the effects they had - and I didn't do it in a self-hating & blaming way....

When I said to wergo that he's trying to skip levels, this is what I meant. He tries to approach the issue intellectually, like it's a problem of logistics and strategy.

I'm not sure I understand how this translates to "it's not what you're doing, it's who you are" (which is how I'm reading the basis of what you're suggesting I need to change).

[PacMan2006]

Thanks Luca...but what about your peers did you not like at the time? What about them or what were they doing that made them appear shallow or immature? And what ideally do you think you would've wanted to change for you to feel comfortable around them or just wanting to be around them in general?

Because I totally get what you are saying about not blaming others and that it all starts and ends with yourself. But, I also think that people are the product of circumstances and their surroundings as well. I suppose that, in your example, you could've just gotten different friends. And while making friends isn't hard or impossible, it does take some time to find people you vibe with who are also quality.

So I guess what I'm trying to pose to you is this...was it really an issue with your ego and that you did need to humble yourself, or did you find/observe that simply what people around you were doing was just shallow and immature and you just didn't want to be a part of that due to your interests and/or beliefs, and therefore that overall surrounding environment caused you to become a loner?

I guess I'm asking this: Did YOU cause yourself to be a loner and become solitary, or do you believe that it was the behaivor of people around you that helped dictate that?

Thanks.

[lucasorion]

I'm not sure I understand how this translates to "it's not what you're doing, it's who you are" (which is how I'm reading the basis of what you're suggesting I need to change).

You're doing what you're doing, and getting the results you're getting, because of who you are. What you're doing isn't just "walking up to a woman and trying to talk with her" - you're walking up to her with all your attitudes and unresolved issues, and those are what predominantly determine the outcome - not the technique or something about the woman.

[lucasorion]

Thanks Luca...but what about your peers did you not like at the time? What about them or what were they doing that made them appear shallow or immature? And what ideally do you think you would've wanted to change for you to feel comfortable around them or just wanting to be around them in general?

I saw only the worst in them, the weakness of needing peer acceptance, trying to follow the latest trends and fashion, etc. I didn't see the deeper humanity in them, I had no compassion for them. And I never acknowledged the fact that I shared their weaknesses to an extent, and that is why they bothered me so much. I idealized myself as someone above it all, when I really needed to be accepted too.

Because I totally get what you are saying about not blaming others and that it all starts and ends with yourself. But, I also think that people are the product of circumstances and their surroundings as well. I suppose that, in your example, you could've just gotten different friends. And while making friends isn't hard or impossible, it does take some time to find people you vibe with who are also quality.

But there are plenty of examples of people who rise above the circumstances and environment which may have led them to be one type of person - but they determined that they were going to be something else. It's all about self-determination, changing from within instead of from without. I think that this can happen in adulthood, but just like learning a language is harder when you're starting as an adult, I think changing oneself becomes so much harder when you have all these layers of ego and behavior patterns between what you are and what you want to be.

So I guess what I'm trying to pose to you is this...was it really an issue with your ego and that you did need to humble yourself, or did you find/observe that simply what people around you were doing was just shallow and immature and you just didn't want to be a part of that due to your interests and/or beliefs, and therefore that overall surrounding environment caused you to become a loner?

I guess I'm asking this: Did YOU cause yourself to be a loner and become solitary, or do you believe that it was the behaivor of people around you that helped dictate that?

Thanks.
I chose to see things in a way that made me feel better about myself, and I shut myself off to certain truths that challenged my preconceived notions. Even as I later learned to relate to my peers, I still felt apart from them - I became addicted to that feeling of separateness. As comfortable as I was believing that the fault was outside of me, it was a deceptive comfort because it held me back from finding a happiness far beyond the self-satisfaction I had in my solitude.

[$$$]

hahahahaha bunch of virgins
j/p
im in my 20's n still a virgin too
atleast u guys even get to the rejection i can't even get their i'll go to talk to a girl and say hi n sit there for bout 10 min of pure silence shit jus sad

[greg9x]

You're doing what you're doing, and getting the results you're getting, because of who you are. What you're doing isn't just "walking up to a woman and trying to talk with her" - you're walking up to her with all your attitudes and unresolved issues, and those are what predominantly determine the outcome - not the technique or something about the woman.

At least your saying stuff that needs to be said...

Wergo: A vast amount of suggestions and advice has been given to you over the last few months, and from this thread it seems you have taken none of it. Your exactly where you were before and have wasted all this time doing the same things you have always done....then come here complaining that it's still not working.
Think we all agree that there is something wrong with YOU...not neccesarily only your actions... this isn't meant as an insult, just a statement of the problem. So people are telling you to work on yourself some how, some way...
Pick some aspect of yourself (apperance, mannerism, speaking ability) and work on improving it.. I think at this point just pick something, at least you'll have a goal besides just meeting a girl.
Think most people will work WITH you to the best of our internet limited ability..but we can't do the work FOR you.
But if you can, seek out professional help of some sort again.. at the least it sounds like your in a depression and that may need therapy/medication to resolve.

[solipsta]

My ego still chimed in, telling me that the problem was mostly with the outside world, the rules and conventions which made someone like me feel like an outsider looking in.
HAHA! I was in the EXACT same place and I think it's a common trap that outsiders fall into! We see this world that we don't fit into and I think we first try to make it fit to us and then damn it all to hell when it doesn't. Then go to a "I'm better than that" stage. I think a big part of my ego was brought down when I started working with mentally challenged people. I used to look down on most all people, but when I started seeing VERY redeeming qualities in people with PROFOUND mental challenges, I had to take a long look at the views I held of others...
I mourned the lost time and the lost opportunities, and I felt compassion for myself, because I didn't deserve to feel so sad for so long.
In my weaker moments I still do this... I look back and see how much I think I should have accomplished and didn't and I feel horrible. I look back on all the time I "lost" and it's a very sad feeling. And then I snap back to reality and realize that all that matters is what's in front. Can't do nothing about what's behind, can ya?

[solipsta]

Even if I were to need to change my personality in any drastic way, I would need more feedback from impartial observers (I can hardly be objective about myself) to know in which direction to change. Get me on a few dates, put me in a few parties where I can talk to people and THEN, should I continue to get rejected by people who actually got to talk to me first, maybe I would have something with which to work.
You just stated that you need impartial observers. Unless we can get you on an episode of Blind Date (is that even on the air anymore?), this really isn't an option. What you REALLY SO VERY MUCH need to do is, as deadlax and so many more of us have been saying, go to get some kind of counselling/therapy. If you problem is merely a "way you come across" thing (which I highly doubt, sorry), I'm more than sure a good therapist would be able to help you with this and/or recommend someone who can, whether it be individual or group therapy.

You can take what we've said and mix it up and say that it's confusing and contradictory all you want, but seriously...has ANY of what anyone has said made an impact on you. Struck a chord? If so, let's talk about that!

Also, you said that you were comfortable being alone when you were in your teens and 20s, correct? Were you content? Happy? Lovin' life? Or were you just "ok". Or not anxious and unhappy. Also, at what point did that change. Don't just say what you THINK changed, try to go back and actually remember what changed. What happened.

[solipsta]

Thank you devynal for your advice, I was afraid I was going to get a bad joke or someone mocking my situation considering I'm asking for opinions in a message board.
Just wanted to say that I don't think there has been much fun-making in this thread other than the first few pages. I'd recommend going back through this thread (might take a while, but it's worth it) and reading it over...even jotting down good ideas. There's a ton of them in here...

And don't think you're alone. You mention you're uncomfortable with your buds at work joking around about having sex...well, I used to joke around about the tail I was getting at work all the time....and I hadn't even kissed a girl. You'll rarely meet a guy that admits he's a virgin.

[lucasorion]

One thing I didn't mention in my personal history is that right as I was entering adolescence, my family moved away from the place I grew up in - a spiritual community where I had good friendships, and even my first (and only) love, a girl named Sarah. I'm sure she saw me as a friend, but who knows what the future would have brought. Here's a picture, I'm behind the book, Sarah's the brunette on the right:http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5375/kids1lq.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kids1lq.jpg)

Anyway, growing up on the commune was great while you were on the commune with the other kids there - but I never felt the need to make close friends with the non-commune kids I went to school with. Then when we moved due to political issues going on in the commune (stuff that didn't filter down to us kids), I was really unprepared to deal with trying to socialize with kids who didn't grow up the way I did.

[wergo]

What you REALLY SO VERY MUCH need to do is, as deadlax and so many more of us have been saying, go to get some kind of counselling/therapy. If you problem is merely a "way you come across" thing (which I highly doubt, sorry), I'm more than sure a good therapist would be able to help you with this and/or recommend someone who can, whether it be individual or group therapy.

You can take what we've said and mix it up and say that it's confusing and contradictory all you want, but seriously...has ANY of what anyone has said made an impact on you. Struck a chord? If so, let's talk about that!

Also, you said that you were comfortable being alone when you were in your teens and 20s, correct? Were you content? Happy? Lovin' life? Or were you just "ok". Or not anxious and unhappy. Also, at what point did that change. Don't just say what you THINK changed, try to go back and actually remember what changed. What happened.

I tried the therapy thing back when I actually still had money to spare and between the cost of the therapy and the antidepressants it just made matters worse. If I were to try going down that road again, I'd be bankrupt and homeless within six months.

I'm trying to think of what I can do to change myself or focus my attentions somewhere else, but nothing obvious comes to mind (except maybe learning another language or investing in a whole new wardrobe or something similar; I don't know that that would be attacking the root core of the problem, though). I've been spending a lot of time lately lurking over at the plentyoffish.com board, trying to see what people with (more active social) lives (than me) do. It's kind of hard to get out of the habit of observing others. It's also kind of hard to get out of the habit of thinking "stop thinking and just DO."

Yeah, maybe "comfortable" wasn't the best-chosen word, I was pretty miserable, but still had a fair amount of hope that the opportunities to change things would appear (and that I'd recognize them if they did). I was content just focusing on things one day at a time, even if I was by myself. Then I guess I just lost patience with just pretending the sexual urge was ever gonna disappate (in fact, it just kept getting worse) and that I was gonna stay alone forever if I didn't just get out and mingle. It was a gradual process; first just trying to do as many things as I liked out in public (going to live clubs instead of just playing records; going to the theatre instead of just watching TV; going to midnight showings of movies instead of just buying laserdiscs). Then, when that didn't work, signing up for volunteer groups and night school classes and going to any events I could find, even if I really had no interest. Then came the dating services and personal ads. (Around then came going into therapy). By the time the dating services and personal ads got through with me, the bank account was drained and the credit cards maxed out. That's when I panicked and just started approaching women at random. That was about 15 years ago.

Exactly what point did it change? I'm gonna have to think about that and get back to you.

ETA: I will add this; I guess it was around the time when I discovered that there was no money for university (after I had been accepted into the physics program at the U of T) that it really sank in that all I'd been fed from kindergarten on how grading well on IQ tests and getting straight A's was gonna lead to a successful (and, presumably, fulfilling) was pure bullcrap. I wasn't in contact with people I actually liked (do introverts ever really like anyone, except in theory?) and just never figured out how to get from point A to point B. I can pinpoint a specific moment when I was around eighteen or so when I realized that I was gonna have to start trying to meet people that I didn't like (maybe even hyper-extroverted obnoxious loud types) if I ever hoped to get anywhere; that I was never gonna be able to just interact with a custom-chosen few. Maybe that's a realization most people make at a MUCH younger age. Anyway, that's when I stopped trying to meet people who shared my specific interests and made a conscious effort to widen the net, in the hopes that others might actually influence me.

[solipsta]

I tried the therapy thing back when I actually still had money to spare and between the cost of the therapy and the antidepressants it just made matters worse. If I were to try going down that road again, I'd be bankrupt and homeless within six months.
Do you have any extended benefits through work? I was able to have at least a little bit covered through this. But I know it's expensive. I look back on all the money I spent on it and...wow...but it was worth it for me. Anyways, other than that, you should start looking for some kind of support group you could get involved with. I know you live in or around Toronto and that's a big area, so there just might be something interesting. From what you've said, you've been looking for social clubs, but a support club might be something to start with.

I'm trying to think of what I can do to change myself or focus my attentions somewhere else, but nothing obvious comes to mind (except maybe learning another language or investing in a whole new wardrobe or something similar; I don't know that that would be attacking the root core of the problem, though).
Really, the only way you're going to attack the core of the problem is through some kind of psychological help. There's a reason that you're unhappy more than just not having a sex partner and you'll have to delve deep to get at it. That is if you really want to get at it. Some people choose to just bandage over it and that's fine if that's their choice. I know people that have done this and they're ok with it. But I don't think you've even gotten that far. You're looking for the right bandage. And getting to the root" is not an easy process. It's expensive, it's painful, it's embarrassing and it hurts like hell. But again, like I said...it might very well be worth it.

I wasn't in contact with people I actually liked (do introverts ever really like anyone, except in theory?)
I think you're mistaking introverted with anti-social. I'd say that the anti-social person might never really like anyone but the introvert definitely has the ability to but is just too...well, introverted to get there sometimes. And from your desire to meet people, I'd keep you in the introverted realm.

Here's something I was thinking about and that I had problems with. When I was depressed and not really enjoying life, my sister set me up with this young woman. She was absolutely spectacular and probably still is. She was intelligent, cute and going forward in life. We went out for lunch to this nice little place and looking back on that, I remember that I had nothing to say. I didn't enjoy life, didn't enjoy my work and didn't enjoy my free time. I had nothing to talk about. I was able to look at that date in my therapy and see that I really needed to learn to enjoy my life and myself before I can contribute to someone's life enough for them to want to spend time with me. And yes, I know that you have said that you can't even get past their outer shell to let them get to know you...but I really think that's because the shell you have around you is also thick...

People love enthusiasm in others. I love to see the sparkle in the eye of a friend or lover when they talk about something they love, whether it be work, play or otherwise. What would you talk about that would show the spark in your eye to a friend or lover?

[solipsta]

ETA: I will add this; I guess it was around the time when I discovered that there was no money for university (after I had been accepted into the physics program at the U of T) that it really sank in that all I'd been fed from kindergarten on how grading well on IQ tests and getting straight A's was gonna lead to a successful (and, presumably, fulfilling) was pure bullcrap. I wasn't in contact with people I actually liked (do introverts ever really like anyone, except in theory?) and just never figured out how to get from point A to point B. I can pinpoint a specific moment when I was around eighteen or so when I realized that I was gonna have to start trying to meet people that I didn't like (maybe even hyper-extroverted obnoxious loud types) if I ever hoped to get anywhere; that I was never gonna be able to just interact with a custom-chosen few. Maybe that's a realization most people make at a MUCH younger age. Anyway, that's when I stopped trying to meet people who shared my specific interests and made a conscious effort to widen the net, in the hopes that others might actually influence me.
I don't feel I addressed this properly.

I think you need to really look at that time in your life. Back when we were kids, an injustice in the world shook our foundation. Then we grow up and the same injustices are bumps on the road, mostly. But the same injustice that happened back then still holds the emotional weight. You need to get your feelings of some of your former injustices caught up with your present. Yes, it's sad that you didn't get to go to university and acheive what you wanted to. But life is unfair. That's just the way it is and I think we all know that. Bad things happen when we were expecting good and sometimes good things when we were expecting bad. We deal with it better as adult than as youngsters and we just have to bring all those things that we felt and experienced when we were younger up the present so they don't have the impact anymore...

Yeah, I dunno if that made any sense at all, but I hope it did...:/

[wergo]

Do you have any extended benefits through work?

The health care package they give us covers practically nothing (not even root canals!).

From what you've said, you've been looking for social clubs, but a support club might be something to start with.

A support group for people with no social skills? I haven't come across anything like that. There's 12-step programs that cover the symptoms of depression; Emotions Anonymous for people who become physically abusive or violent and Alcoholics Anonymous/Narcotics Anonymous for people who develop substance issues trying to deal with the depression, but that's about it, AFAIK.

People love enthusiasm in others. I love to see the sparkle in the eye of a friend or lover when they talk about something they love, whether it be work, play or otherwise. What would you talk about that would show the spark in your eye to a friend or lover?

No idea. I'd have to just hope she's looking for a good listener and take my cues from her. Improvise and hope that a spark would eventually develop just from the relative novelty of talking about (insert topic to be determined here) with someone instead of just talking to myself. I'd certainly have an easier time getting interested in almost anything just by the nature of it being associated with social interaction.

Couldn't I just started dating anti-social girls instead? Maybe they'd find enthusiasm in others annoying and would be relieved at my understated nature. :|

[PacMan2006]

Wergo...

Have you tried simple things first, like going to a chat room and talking to women? I think that can help two-fold:

1) You can interact with girls and find out what works regarding topics of conversation and find out what doesn't work. Although you aren't face to face, the internet/chat rooms/instant messages are good because people's personalities do come out through their writing. And you can know if jokes land with the other person due to their "lol's", etc. It would provide a good way to interact with the opposite sex without them judging you immediately or you feeling uncomfortable had it been in person.

2) What it would also do is provide you with a direct female contact. Someone who you could ask questions to and who can probably provide better answers than guys could. You could ask, "So, what do you look for in a guy?" "What kinds of things do you find attractive about guys' personalities? "Have you ever had a guy approach you in the mall or grocery store? If so, do you like that?" "Where do you like to be approached?" "What do you like for guys to say?" etc...

I'm not saying interrogate her or these women, but if you can first establish a decent relationship/friendship with these people you meet in chat rooms, you can then start to understand what they look for in the opposite sex, and in turn use that knowledge for your own personal gain. And I'm sure they could give you some solid tips as well.

[wergo]

I am registered with yahoo.com and I do occasionally lurk, but I hafta admit that I'm really not even sure I'm using it right. Anywhere I go 95% of the chat boxes are just ________joined the room and _______left the room. I'm sure there's some chatting going on that I'm not plugged into, but most of what I see seems like junior high kids, for the most part. Lots of "hi" and "that iz so cool!" and there are an awful lot of acronyms and shortened words I haven't figured out yet. I think I still need to learn how to maneouvre my way around it before I can locate people to talk to (or even identify which ones are female and/or older than 14).

I have been spending a lot of time lately trolling through the forums over at plentyoffish.com, just reading to what those people have to say about dating and sex and meeting people. It's interesting though not, as of yet, helpful.

[PacMan2006]

Well, if you download Yahoo Messenger for free on yahoo.com, they have a TON of different chat rooms for people of all ages and interests.

[lucasorion]

I'll second the idea of chatting as a way of building communication skills with women. In my late teens and early twenties I made friends with a couple girls online, one in New Zealand that I talked to on a regular basis. We had similar tastes in music and used to have fun meeting in some chat room and "singing" along together. We lost touch not long after she "went to university" but that was probably my closest friendship since I was about 12.

[wergo]

Upon further consideration, two points:

1. The concept of "confidence" seems to be central to all this, both from the people who are too shy to ask women out and those of us who got past that and ask them out constantly, but get shot down regardless, and I'm not at all convinced that there's much difference between the two scenarios. They all fall into the category of the inability to believe (either with or without historical evidence) that the protagonist cannot attract someone; that, deserving or not, they just don't have "whatever it takes" to get someone. Either you think you're going to fail because of your own imagnation or you think you're going to fail because that's what experience has taught you. How do you make yourself stop thinking you're going to fail?

The problem is that confidence is very specific. I've been trying to figure out what I can do to change myself and the brick wall I keep coming up against is that developing confidence in one area des NOT affect others. No matter how confident I may become that I can play the minute waltz in perfect time on the piano, it's not gonna make me confident that I can speak fluent Greek or attract a woman. It's not transferrable; the world is full of people who are confident in one area but are a mess of insecurities in others.

If I'm gonna find a way to increase my confidence, it HAS to be in the romantic arena. If I have been spending years brainwashing myself that I'm never gonna get someone, HOW do I brainwash myself to believe otherwise? If simple persistence doesn't pay off, HOW do you develop a different mindset? What's the process to make youself feel like a fully-functioning human being when you don't have experience relating to them? (and no, watching a lot of TV doesn't count)

2. I wasn't kidding about not being sure I'm using Yahoo Chat right. I keep logging on and what I get is mainly blank pages full of the names of people who are signing in or logging off; is this what's supposed to happen (do most people just sign in, realize that nothing's happening and then leave?) or is there some extra step I'm not taking to be able to see all this "chat"? I do occasionally get single lines from people that seem to indicate that I'm only seeing half a conversation - questions unanswered and lots of "O my god he iz SO hottt!" that don't seem to refer to anything. If the board is blank, and just saying "hi" doesn't get a response from anyone, what's the appropriate wat to get a conversation started with strangers? On boards I'm kinda used to lurking for a few weeks to get a sense of what's going on before I dive in, that doesn't (apparently) seem to be an option on chatrooms.

[solipsta]

If I'm gonna find a way to increase my confidence, it HAS to be in the romantic arena. If I have been spending years brainwashing myself that I'm never gonna get someone, HOW do I brainwash myself to believe otherwise? If simple persistence doesn't pay off, HOW do you develop a different mindset? What's the process to make youself feel like a fully-functioning human being when you don't have experience relating to them? (and no, watching a lot of TV doesn't count)
First off, I think you have to change "romantic" to "social". You need to start off slow. From what I see, what you really have is loneliness. You don't have anyone to talk to, bounce ideas off of....you need that more than you need a girlfriend right now, know what I mean?

Ok, if you want to learn something, what do you do? You break it down, take something easy, learn that and move onto the next thing and go from there. If I wanted to learn to play golf, I COULD just go out and enter a tournament having never even tried on a golf glove and fail miserably. Or I could start by learning to hold the clubs. Then practise taking some swings, maybe getting some direction on it. Then go to a driving range, etc, etc, etc...

You say there's no clubs or groups in Toronto...so maybe pick a nice bar and become somewhat of a regular there. DO NOT go in there to pick up women, go there to just enjoy it. Talk to the bartender. Maybe make a comment to someone about something that's on the television. Don't just talk to girls, talk to guys.

Take some baby steps and you may see some improvement here...

Oh, and I disagree with you about how being confident in one thing doesn't translate into confidence in general. It's about knowing that you have the ability to succeed at something. That knowledge is powerful if you let it be. ESPECIALLY for someone that may not have a lot of luck in life. But maybe that isn't true for you...how am I to know. Are you saying this from personal experience? Is there something that you're really good and confident about?

[lucasorion]

Maybe you should look into NLP - Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It can help to "reframe" mindsets and ways of looking at a situation. That's what I'm trying to do with my upcoming appearance in small claims court to testify for a friend. I've got a social phobia about public speaking that I feel it is time to get over, so I'm trying to reframe my attitude to where I see this as an opportunity and not something to dread.

[datagirl7]

Well, here's one where I AM gonna just say it's not gonna work. I filled out the questionnaire (some of those questions near the end are kinda scary:- do you know anyone who accepts the homosexual lifestyle? do you intend to raise children according to the tenets of the Christian faith? are the choices you make regarding movies and TV shows influenced by your faith in Jesus Christ? do you believe that God made man the head of the houshold and that woman should obey him? - I'm paraphrasing, but that's the general gist.) and they emailed me a rejection notice! Apparently, I'm not enough of a fundamentalist Christian for them. (which, considering the groups they donate money to/are associated with, is probably a good thing.) If they reject anyone who doesn't fit their narrow view of morality, I'm assuming that anyone I'd be compatible with isn't registed with them either.

That was about Eharmony. I wanted to tell you they've un-done all the religious stuff and are now an inclusive site. I just joined and there are no questions like that at all. So if you want, you can try again. You live in a major city so you should get lots of matches.

[Darknite39]

update:

This is a long weekend for me (Mon and Tues off). Friday, we went out with some of her friends to eat, then back to her place for a movie, after which I spent the night with her. We just cuddled/kissed...nothing really frisky. It was so hot in that room, though...very hard to sleep. Not that I really minded. We stayed in bed until about 1, then got up, went to eat breakfast/lunch, and went to Walmart to pick up a desk for her. We assembled it, and then rested on her couch b/c of the ~sleepless night. It was a 24-hour date. Quite nice, really.

Sunday, I went with her to visit some relatives. We both ate too much food cooked in the Southern tradition. We were gone for about 10.5 hours (mini-roadtrip!), then we went our separate ways to get some work done (which we'd been neglecting)...she ended up coming over a few hours later, spending the night with me. Thankfully, it wasn't quite so hot in my room.

I've come quite a ways in a month, it seems. :thumbsup:

If I can do it, I'm sure others in this thread can, too, so keep trying! Eventually good fortune will befall you (at least there's a greater chance of it befalling you if you keep trying).

[solipsta]

Congrats, Darknite. So is it just cuddling and kissing so far? Do you sleep together? If it's been a month, you might want to make a move if you haven't already. Or at least talk about it....

[Darknite39]

We've talked about it. She's been with one person (I believe her--she's very open and direct), and I'm somewhat apprehensive, so we're taking things slowly, which is fine by me. I have a feeling it may happen, but it may be a little while before it does. She knows about my...introverted nature (as discussed in this thread), so she's not pushing me.

[solipsta]

We've talked about it. She's been with one person (I believe her--she's very open and direct), and I'm somewhat apprehensive, so we're taking things slowly, which is fine by me. I have a feeling it may happen, but it may be a little while before it does. She knows about my...introverted nature (as discussed in this thread), so she's not pushing me.
That's good that you've talked about it. I'd be worried that it might get to a point where it's uncomfortable to approach it. Or it might get built up to where it HAS to be something spectacular and perfect. Know that it probably won't be. It might be awkward and silly. But probably great nonetheless. I'd be careful not to be TOO apprehensive or the relationship might turn into a "friends" thing. I've had that happen... :|

[PacMan2006]

Sounds great, Dark. How old are you two again?

[Darknite39]

we're 23

[Mark Thompson]

I’m writing this after having a severe headache and I tell you what it brings out realisation. I don’t know how to put this and indeed as soon as I sit down at the computer it comes out differently to how I want it to. Funny thing is when I’m walking outside about things come to me in my head exactly how I’d want it to intend to especially on the bus. Maybe I should be writing things as I go along rather than fit it all in to one sitting because I always miss things out. I also feel that the way I write is not a true reflection of me and it’s how I’ve been stringing things together in an invented form rather than from the heart. I’ve been putting barriers up and I feel as though I’ll never truly be able to express myself. Most of it will always be contained and I feel as though I’ll never be able to relay my feelings unless I am able to establish a connection with someone. That connection is mutual and what I mean by that is you grow used to someone by sharing experiences you see in exactly the same way. Some of us think differently and our minds operate in a similar fashion to most things. However, there is a range but I think my mind is on the lower end of the scale. Perhaps because I have made myself like that and it might be considered to say that it is depression, but depression is a natural occurrence as a result of cause and effect. My state is self-inflicted and I feel that because of this there is no going back.

Unlike some of you virgins I haven't even got a job as well as I'm long-term unemployed and I lost my patience with one agency looking down on me where it was on my birthday. What a shit day that was and I wish I never went out. Do you ever get that feeling where when you’ve been out you wish you hadn’t went out at all? I sometimes think that when you’re in all the time, you put a barrier up where you can delude yourself into thinking that the world outside is actually better than it is. That’s why when I go out I’m disappointed about the whole thing and wish I’d never went out. Maybe I’m painting the whole picture black and not thinking that there could be good things. Probably, but I bet they’re few and far between. You can’t even go out on a Friday night by yourself without fear no less a lot of places at any time of the day. Okay, so I’m going by a bad experience I had but I’m also going by experience I’ve had from the reactions I’ve received from supposedly decent people. When I sent Mary (sister) a letter, all I’ve had are negative statements that I couldn’t hope to get on with the state of mind I’m in now. That’s precisely what I mean, I couldn’t possibly reverse it. Sometimes I think that (call it paranoia – aren’t I right about anything?) people are laughing at me because I’m such a sad loser and it makes their life so much better to know that there’s a pathetic man who can’t do anything right or be successful in areas where most of the general population have succeeded as it inflates their own ego as well as makes them feel so much more powerful (natural instinct). Those less powerful than higher powers have the next best thing to feel better about when they’re looking at me because there aren’t many people like me and there’s nothing that can be said against them as they’re in the majority. This makes them feel less secure when they’re looking at people more powerful than them when they’re looking at me and because they wouldn’t usually come across anyone like me then this gives them a sense of power where if they were to laugh at me then it would increase it tenfold so they do it. This is why it can be hard to distinguish between truly decent people and not so, don’t forget it can be shown in body language. I’ve passed on about people looking as though they’re amused about me because it’s a natural instinct. I guess it’s not a natural instinct when it becomes voluntary like turning me into a laughingstock. We are animals, but we are supposed to be intelligent and I believe we override that intelligence when we don’t think of others’ feelings thus we are no longer in control. When we are in control, any reaction is involuntary but that’s just one area of the human psyche.

It’s made me feel a little bit better seeing there are other people in the same situation and I would say that in the above paragraph it's an explanation for an experience I had when I was 25. It's kind of stayed with me and it only gets worse as I get older. I was on a supposed confidence-building course where I was joking about my situation like we had to sell ourselves on a pretend dating agency to draw parallels to looking for a job. I said I needed a dominatrix to show me the way because I hadn't had any confidence and all it turned into was a laughing frenzy pointing at me. We were at a fairground as part of the course and when we were on a ride one of the lads remarked: "Oh my god! He's 25 and still a virgin, he's going to die one" followed by incessant laughter and there was a girl in the group taking part in it. I then began strolling in the fairground feeling as though everyone was against me because when they saw me walking alone as they went past on a ride I saw them pointing at me and one of them said: "You're a f**king loser and a pathetic virgin" and I saw people walking by seeing my reaction to them hearing them and you know what? They just laughed and these were complete strangers.

I'm not about to tarnish everyone with the same brush, but I think most people are like and you only have to look on the Internet where on some forums they make fun of them though I'm surprised it hasn't so much happened here - yet. I'd like to send out my respect to the 40-odd year olds who've posted on here and for publicising their stories because I really feel as though I'm inevitably benchmarked for that certain fate, but to find that they are decent guys doesn't make me mind so much. I know only too well the amount of grief that can be caused by some people and it feels as though you're being punished for something you should be felt sorry for in some cases seemingly worse than a non-virgin who has committed misdemeanours.

I'm in the UK and we had a version of Jerry Springer called Trisha where there was a show on virgins. There was a man who came on and they asked him how old he was to which he said he was 44 then there was an outroar of laughter. It seemed that they just made the show because it'd make good TV to point fingers and ridicule the minority. Knowing what I know now regardless of whether I was a virgin or not I would've stood up and told the audience what I think of them including the host. No mention was made of what value he's brought to this world and he could've done a lot for people in his life as well as a lot of good, but no he was instantly undervalued as well as degraded just because he was a virgin. He didn't look happy neither but still the cackling went unattended.

Maybe there isn't anything to virginity and they're just thoughtless people, but it's what drives the depression as well as angst. It creates the wrong type of motivation causing desperation and it isn't very encouraging so maybe it's people like that that create so-called losers so maybe it's them that are the real losers because they aren't helping the world. In other words there'd be no losers if there weren't people like that and maybe the media like it is. I believe I fall into my situation due to my circumstances of being on my own most of my life since my teens and being abandoned by some people. I also feel that some people can fall into this category because of neglect and the I'm alright jack attitude. A lot of it has to be done by oneself, but I haven't been given much encouragement and I see this as being that I'm deemed a failure anyway or to give me confidence I see it that these people don't want me to get on so they don't bother because they don't need to. Any excuse is justifiable but it's not worth its weight in gold.

I only ask for a few conditions and any help that has been given I think has been derogatory like putting me on tablets to say that I couldn't possibly hope to get a girlfriend so I better just learn to cope with it instead of there's no reason why not as well as you just need to do this. Nothing reflective of that has been given so if there's no possibility then I wish I wasn't born and how anyone can shrug their shoulders as well as think that it's nothing, but it was my sister as she is a female so she wouldn't understand. I think that my sister was looking at me like a brother does unto her without thinking that a stranger could find me attractive. Also her alias (boyfriend) probably gets an ego-boost and huge satisfaction behind the scenes and she plays along.

If the above is true then I believe I would have newfound confidence because in my mind there's not a scrap of evidence to suggest otherwise. The problem is though it's difficult to steer in the right direction when you're on your own and you haven't the mutual support. All I ask is for an apology for what they did to me in the past and I don't want anything back in return that's what would be the final piece to the jigsaw to say that they are bothered. If I was him/her I would have no problem apologising and I would apologise anyway because I would feel sorry for him so it just proves when she said he feels sorry for me that it's just lies. Not to even apologise to someone who'll potentially never have a girlfriend and all that goes with it drives me away (cause and effect) as well as proves they're not bothered.

No-one deserves to go through life without never having had someone and to even laugh at that and justify it by saying it's just laddish behaviour is a poor indictment for justification as well as an excuse to be callous and thoughtless. It's like glorifying violence and turning it into something glamorous. Maybe the non-virgins could do more to assure us that we're making it out to be more than what it is and the word virginity is just a human-made invention to describe an act that's enshrouded in spirituality as well as there being nothing special to it it's just a feeling albeit pleasurable.

[deadlax]

Uh, yeah, you're gonna have to go ahead and bold the important parts of your post. Anything over 10 lines requires bold to the key parts. Have you had a girlfriend? Do you have friends? Did you skip 8 grades in school? What you do? etc.

[lucasorion]

Uh, yeah, you're gonna have to go ahead and bold the important parts of your post.

:lol: I was just reading your response and hearing it in the voice of that boss from "Office Space"

Mark Thompson, you don't need to say everything all at once. We've all got this litany of internal dialogues (or, hopefully, monologues) that run through our head from time to time, and I understand wanting to express them to others, but for the sake of legibility and effectiveness - take your time, pick a specific question or idea you want to express, and get the words out in a way that allows for simple discussion (the need for deciphering slows things down a lot)

[Mark Thompson]

Sorry about that - friendly people. What I'd like to say is I'm a 28-year-old virgin as of 17 May this year and I'd been Googling threads about it sparked by my age. Well actually, it was realisation that hit me when I was 27 and I actually have never had a girlfriend. I have one close friend who actually found a girl over the Internet amid almost giving up just before he hit his 27th whose now living away with her and I'm happy for him. I think I did alright at school but I believe much of where I'm at is due to my own doing and I believe even now it's too late to untangle my inevitable fate of dying a virgin. I'm currently long-term unemployed here in the UK and I think even if I get a job the chances of me finding someone is minimised by the fact I've never really tried before, but when I begin to imagine myself as trying the fear just envelopes me as well as I have these thoughts like gremlins telling me I'm kidding myself if I ever thought that I could ever have a girlfriend, at least with any looks in any shape or form. I think I fit in the category of Testy and NightRider, but at least they've got jobs. Here's some links you may be interested in: http://almost40virgin.blogspot.com/ http://www.ambrosian.org/ http://monstersarcasmrally.typepad.com/30yearoldvirgin/2006/04/why.html#comments

[lucasorion]

I don't see how you can think that your chances of finding someone are diminished by the fact that you've never really tried. I've never really tried, and I'm more optimistic about my chances because of that fact. If I'd been putting myself out there all these years and failing to attract women, I'd probably have a fatalistic attitude. I've lived a quasi-Quasimodo life since puberty, and I know that the state of my social life is a result of choices I made, not a result of the world rejecting me (which doesn't happen to anyone, by the way)

[darmok]

well Mark, i have friends that didn't hook up until very late in life (late 20s, early 30s even), and their excuses were a combination of self-imposed shyness, a little culture shock (coming from conservative or sexually-repressed culture), and a focus on other goals like careers. you've got all kinds here in NYC, so your story is not as uncommon as you may think. but you're the only one who's going to solve your own problem, and generally, shyness is the biggest hurdle.

since you're running behind, i suggest you try online dating. besides the fact that people i know hook up really fast from those sites, it's also an easier way of "breaking the ice". of course the unemployed angle might throw off the ladies a bit...

[Mark Thompson]

Thanks for the reassurances, lucasorian and darmok. Okay, I'll say that I'm sorta lying if I say that there isn't a positive angle and there is where it's sidelined in my mind. Why the hell is it such a big deal if someone dies a virgin anyway? Is it that bad or is it just a cultural ideal that's been in our society like a fashion accessory where if you're not streetwise then you look out-of-place? I know they say it's all great and wonders, but I've never seen any non-virgin come on the scene to debunk it or disentangle the mystery of sex that is to a virgin. That's why I've recently become interested in the subject of virginity and is it possible to describe what sex is like to a virgin or does the feeling have texture that an untouched person cannot possibly imagine by deducement alone through taking what experiences they've had in this world by collectively implacing them in their mind to form a picture? I wonder this because all I've ever read are nondescript remarks from non-virgins and I'm trying to make myself feel better in preparation for the possibility that I may never lose it. I'm thinking though isn't the word "virgin" just manmade since it's describing an act? Nothing more than an experience.

[wergo]

I'm thinking though isn't the word "virgin" just manmade since it's describing an act? Nothing more than an experience.


True, but there are precious few "rites of passage" left in western culture. As experiences go, it's kind of an essential one for anyone who requires a healthy self-image as an adult. There's a reason that so many religious groups are so obsessed with chastity pledges from kids. Sex is a control issue.

[Mark Thompson]

I agree with the religious argument up to a point because if sex would be found to that good then surely a lot of people would abandon their religion as soon as they found out unless they're the biggest hypocrites of all which I'm sure they are. It reminds me of the dominatrix scenario where you enslave your mind to her for a buzz and I believe the deprivation of sexual pleasure has to find a vent in other ways. When people see a loving God they only want to commit to that and they'll go out of their way for it whether it's putting yourself through trials and tribulations, remember the dominatrix inflicts pain. Being that sexual stimuli is one of the most powerful potencies in nature it makes sense that they choose this area to concentrate on by saying its bad and wrong. A lot of people have fallen victim to this and it has had a consequential effect on their sexlives if they've managed to establish one. I might try online dating sooner rather than later and I feel that I may have to go on antidepressants to build my confidence as well as sometime soon secure a job even if it's for a little while because it's starting to get on top of me my inadequacy. I have no social life you see and it makes it worse.

[Nick Danger]

Mark, I don't know much about National Health, but have you gone to see a psych? You mention antidepressants, so I know you've thought about it. Right now, you have different thoughts coming into your head so fast that I have trouble reading your posts.

[lucasorion]

Being a virgin in my late twenties, I think I've grown beyond the desire to change that status for reasons like feeling "normal" or even selfish desire for pleasure. I want to share my life with someone, and I want to experience the intimacy that comes with a relationship - having someone really know you beyond the level of a relative or friend. I feel like I have a great capacity for giving love and affection, but it has been bottled up inside me for so long, only shared with the pets I've had over the years. Unfortunately, my family has grown apart since my childhood, and we don't even have conversations very often, much less show a lot of love and affection. Sometimes I compare my situation to that of an abandoned baby who was in an incubator from birth, and wasn't held and talked to enough in the crucial early period of it's life. The idea of having someone in my life who is there to talk to, to hold and kiss, etc. seems as much an extreme change as that baby being adopted as a young child and suddenly being hugged and loved.

[Mark Thompson]

I think I know what you mean about the virginity issue not bothering you any more and given that I've left it so long why would I feel any different about it as I get into my thirties or fourties? But I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me at times at least. Ideally, I'd like to lose it before I'm 30 as a goal post or on my actual 30th birthday if dreams could come true but whether it's in my 40's or later I don't care as long as I'd lost it before I topped it. Having said that though, I know I change my tune from time to time but just being close to someone as you described is the most important aspect of this and it grows more-and-more as I get older. The consequence of being unable to lose virginity is due to social, but I also feel I'm one of the most different people you could meet and I'm incompatible with every girl because I'm not on their wavelength. I've tried to come out of myself but I think I just get these negative vibes because due to my unnatural way of living by self-induced detachment I have damaged myself in the process. It is this realisation that I may never have a girlfriend and when I thought about this last year I cried and cried where I had to go on anti-depressants to calm.

[Gilgamesh1082]

Throwing in another success story here.

I'm currently 24 and as of two years ago, I was a virgin who had no hopes of making it happen. Didn't go out, worked a crappy part time job to pay for college (7 years of bagging groceries, oh yeah), had a group of close friends who were all the same way. I had decided to just wait for someone to share my life with. If they came along great, if they didn't, that was fine too. This one thing helped my self-image greatly. I just put aside the whole instinctual drive for sex.

And thats when I found the woman who would become my wife. Working the same shitty job for the same reason. The same day I got an internship working for the local school board's IT department (which was huge for me, I hated my job but was trapped in it because it was so damn comfortable for me) I went out on my first date with her. Went to see The Passion. I lucked out, she asked me if I wanted to see it with. It was all downhill from there. She brought me out of my shell. For the first time I was able to communicate with someone (and with others because of her). She was coming off of a bad relationship (dumped a jerk of a fiance) and we both wanted things to go slowly if at all. But we both just instinctively trusted each other with things we hadn't told another living soul. Don't know why, but very glad it happened that way.

18 months after our first date, we were married. I got a nice good paying job with that same school board's IT department (after having worked two jobs at 40 hours a week and taking 22 hours of classes to get out of college) and had a house built. I have all this because of her. She was the first person I met who believed in me and thought the world of me. She brought me out of my shell and allowed me to truly experience life. I have a lot more friends now and am extremely more outgoing.

Having someone to hold and kiss, worry about the future with, grow old together with beats the ever living shit out of sex in every way. If you're in your twenties and thirties and haven't gotten laid, its not the end of the world. But to be socially introverted is. No man can be an island unto himself. Get out there with the rest of the world. If you feel bad about being a virgin, don't tell a soul, that tends to get laughs out of people. And not in a good way. Just be social. The rest tends to follow.

I will say this though, sex is great and wonderful. Especially with a person who loves you. And if you get to your twenties, thirties, or forties without having sex, it makes it a lot easier. Your first time is always, ALWAYS, akward and if you and your partner can laugh about it, you have a keeper.

[Parcher]

Great post Gilgamesh, good read ! I especially liked the last part.

And yeah, first time is really akward!

[PacMan2006]

Interesting Gilgamesh...though I am curious...if you were so introverted up until 22, and I am guessing both never had sex nor a relationship/girlfriend previously...do you think that you simply fell for this woman because she was the first to actually really be into you and vice-versa? I especially ask because you are only 24, and married her after 18 months. It makes me wonder if part of that was due to the fact that, I'm guessing, you hadn't had prior experience in being loved/appreciated by a girl you liked because, as you say, you were inside an introverted shell most of your life.

[wergo]

Just be social. The rest tends to follow.

Well, maybe it should tend to follow, but what would you suggest for those who it didn't? (that can't possibly be correct grammar, can it?)

The problem with being an introvert is that you have no idea HOW to be social. At least, not well.

If I'd been putting myself out there all these years and failing to attract women, I'd probably have a fatalistic attitude.

True dat. :fro:

[Mark Thompson]

Why you would think there was no hope at 22 I don't know as that's still fairly young, but closer to 30 or 40 then I would understand though maybe age has got nothing to do with it and more to whether you think you've got the ability to get or based on whether you've tried no matter what ages.

Maybe age doesn't matter and to be positive it's a myth if there's rapidly decreasing chances the older you get. Sex seems to be associated with youth and as we all know you are no longer officially regarded as a youth when you reach 30 where it seems to give rise that you are then passed it.

Obviously, people say this because a woman's body clock's ticking and the association with it giving birth to babies. To make me feel better thinking that I may never have sex I tend to think that's all it's for and it's bound to be the most extraordinary thing and nothing like it in feeling because it needs to be for the importance of carrying on the human race.

[Darknite39]

Update for me...

She came over tonight and said "I don't think things are gonna work out." This was true, not only b/c I'm moving in a couple of months, but also b/c we're very different people in a lot of ways. I'll tell you all this, though: it was nice to have someone to open up to, even if it made me uncomfortable sometimes. I think we're going to do the friend thing, unless I get all defensive and shut her out completely, which is possible (not sure yet). I'm really glad it was her that broke it off, b/c I had been talking about doing the same thing with a friend of ours...I just kept hoping that things would change and we'd start clicking better than we were. Things just never really felt completely "right" I guess. Maybe I'll find someone else at some point who does feel "right." It's something to look forward to in the long run, though I'll surely be sad about the breakup for a while.

[Parcher]

Virgins:

I really do believe this to be good advice...- have you considered joining a gym and being really serious about working out and packing on some size and strength?

You won't believe the difference it can make towards ladies. Granted, I am young and have only been with one girl (for reasons not relevant her). But my point is after vigurously working out I find that females have a very different atittude towards me. Both good and bad, but mostly good, and mostly in an attracted sexual way! I find more girls "checking me out", more girls initiate conversation with me, and I am now more of a sexual being than just a geek with an interest in history, politics, law and movies......

Take me some years ago: just below 5 foot and 10 inches. Weighed 132 pounds! Now: same height, but 200 lbs with a reasonable low body fat too.
Then: zero visible muscle, on the very wrong side of skinny.
NOw: the opposite.Obviously now is better for me.

If you have a nice body, girls will notice - and you WILL have an edge, an advantage, something to "market" yourself with. And on top of that, you will have more confidence, feel better about yourself - you will want to show off (some more than others) and with time you may just become more outgoing.
Regarding sex, a girl will definitely think different of you if you are muscular than if you are fat or skinny fat.
Well...just wanna tell you, it makes such a huge difference in the looks you get from girls. And you know what? It also shows a type of accomplishment. And we all know girls like accomplishment.

Of couse it'll take a lot of hard work. But hey, nothing is free, right? No free lunch and all that. You have to get things to happen.

Just my 2 cents, advice that I believe is worth gold...

[Mark Thompson]

It should pan out for you Darknite39

I think I look alright, but I am on the particularly skinny side though going to the gym would be a no-go area for me unless I had someone to go with. I must admit I get scared around women sometimes and even when I went to sign something in front of a beautiful woman in my eyes my writing became disjointed as well as I started shaking. I try to cover it up and when I was in a job years ago there was this woman there who I really liked. I couldn't believe how attractive she was and I'd never seen anything as beautiful in all my life. I think the rest of the guys thought she was mundane but whenever I saw her my reaction gave you know like in those cartoons where their eyes pop out? Well it's not that exaggerated but it's the most unbelievable thing I've ever felt. Words cannot describe how interesting I thought she was and whenever I went near her my heart was just racing like it could burst out of my chest. I nearly fell over a box once and lost all the use of my faculties, but she saw this. Her reactions were disapproval and I felt heart-wrenched.

[Parcher]

It should pan out for you Darknite39
I think I look alright, but I am on the particularly skinny side though going to the gym would be a no-go area for me unless I had someone to go with.

That's how a lot of guys feel. But why? Nobody is going to hurt you :)
Well since you don't wanna go alone, then do find someone to go with. I cannot tell you how big a difference it will make in your life. I truly believe that gym going, working out and getting muscles and confidence will help you.

Hey I was on the VERY skinny side too. I felt intimidated. But so what? Start small. Baby steps, bigger stips and even bigger steps. Train smart and hard, and eat and rest correctly. Then YOU will become one of the big guys that newbeginners fear.

Overcome any fear or insecurity. If you don't have the confidence to go to a gym, how are you going to get it when dealing with women? Visualize small goals, and score! That'll give you the tools and confidence to pursue even greater goals.

[lucasorion]

I got a gym membership a few months ago, and I only wish I'd done it 10-12 years ago in my teens. I've always been a big guy, pretty naturally muscular, but also overweight. Now I'm beginning to lose fat and replace it with tone and new muscular development I didn't have before (like my chest and forearms, etc.) The confidence it gives me to feel more comfortable in my body is incredible. I go most days of the week; even if - like yesterday - I spent the morning hauling logs for firewood or some other tiring thing, I find myself getting energized by spending an hour lifting (I do a half hour of cardio 2-3 days a week too)

I understand feeling intimidated by some of the super-fit and muscular people you'll see in there, but if you look around, there are people at all levels. You also should think about what your goal is instead of making comparisons. For instance, I don't want to look like a lot of the guys I see in the gym, who often seem over-muscular, my goal is to get a good all-around balance of strength and fitness without looking like I spend all my spare time in the gym.

[downinfire]

21 year old here.

[Mark Thompson]

Thanks for the advice guys and it sounds like a good avenue to go down, but it just isn't for me as I don't think I'm that bad because people have told me I just need to put a bit of weight on that's all, ie: eat more.

I've just been Googling on the subject of virginity and it looks like Testy's given up just look on page 2: http://ehealthforum.com/health/topic32371.html

I hate it when they point funny at people like through this link I found through Googling: http://www.yourdirtymind.com/index.php?action=viewnews&news_id=513&title=Tubby%20BoB%20-%2028%20year%20old%20male%20virgin

I haven't seen the trailer and I don't want to either. It's these sorts of things which make me feel worse and it doesn't help the situation any more.

[UKingdom]

I hate it when they point funny at people like through this link I found through Googling: http://www.yourdirtymind.com/index.php?action=viewnews&news_id=513&title=Tubby%20BoB%20-%2028%20year%20old%20male%20virgin



oh gosh that was something.

[solipsta]

I think the reason going to the gym helps people out in attracting the opposite sex is not necessarily because they look bigger/thinner/buffer/better, but more in that it gives you confidence that you can accomplish something and do something good for yourself. When you take care of yourself, it shows. You walk straighter, look people in the eye, say things with confidence, etc.

Confidence is the biggest aphrodisiac.

[xage]

I understand feeling intimidated by some of the super-fit and muscular people you'll see in there, but if you look around, there are people at all levels. You also should think about what your goal is instead of making comparisons. For instance, I don't want to look like a lot of the guys I see in the gym, who often seem over-muscular, my goal is to get a good all-around balance of strength and fitness without looking like I spend all my spare time in the gym.

I think I look alright, but I am on the particularly skinny side though going to the gym would be a no-go area for me unless I had someone to go with.

Hehehe... now-adays.. In a gym, the reason to be intimidated is not how muscular people around you are but how many Muscular Gay People hit on you.

[Mark Thompson]

Yeah, you can attract gay men easily. I was on a park bench once and this guy passed by and said the local toilets are out-of-order so do I mind if I keep a watch out for him while he goes in the bushes. Needless to say I said no because it's a funny thing to ask and he said aw go on I'll give you some money. Then I raised my voice and said NO! to which he then walked off. I later inspected that the local toilets weren't out of order and I came across him again another day in which he said the same again where I told him this then he said so do you want to keep a look out for me then he said no as I was going to say as if he already knew my reply. Then he walked off and whatever that was all about I don't know. There was also an occasion where I was in the hospital visiting my Nan and there was this man staring at me across the beds and his mother was laughing as he looked as though he was attracted to me. I was just about to go off in a huff and throw a chair across the other side of the room, but my Nan was gravely ill. I wish a woman would've looked at me like that though and that would've been nice.

[Bergundy]

I just read through this post. Hard to believe it started in 2000. I wonder if those people are still virgins.

As far as me, I don't really know if I'm "a virgin". It's kind of gray. In my young teens, I messed around with boys I knew and they, for lack of a better phrase, put it in but didn't really penetrate. I'm a 37 year old woman and that's been the extent of my sexual experience. I have turned down a couple offers in my life (mostly because they were losers). My problem is I have a disability that prevents me from driving so I can't get out there and mingle. I've tried a little itnernet dating but I'm kinda paranoid about getting an axe murderer or something (even though I'm very careful and have only met someone in person this way once).

I'm not unattractive, but not a model or anything. I also worry about a few parts of my body that aren't terribly attractive (including a burn on my chest and some stretch marks).

To me, being a 37 year old virgin is like some stigma that is embarassing. I do believe I tend to send off a "stay away from me" vibe that I'm trying to work on but don't quite know how to beat it. I know guys find me attractive. Friends will point out guys staring at me from time to time and others acting like they're really interested. I have one that flirts with me all the time.

Still, here I am...and I feel like it's like this area of my life that's sorely lacking. I've often thought if a guy I found even mildly attractive propositioned me now, I'd go for it.

[Nick Danger]

You know that you'll get lots of propositions from this crowd.

[Longhungsilver]

You know that you'll get lots of propositions from this crowd.
i was soooo gonna ask her for her number lol but thought it was in bad taste

[Mark Thompson]

Proof in the pudding that virgins aren't losers just scroll to the bottom through this link and see the famous geniuses who died virgins:

http://www.sexualrecords.com/WSRtechnique.html

I don't know if this has already been put but it might prove useful information if somewhat depressing though mind you this entire thread is somewhat:

www.incelsite.com

I've got to say that since reading through this thread it has made me feel less inadequate as quite recently I have been feeling deathly depressed and have been crying a lot at nighttime before I go to bed. I have to leave the radio on now to create some room ambience otherwise the quiet starts allowing me to think of all the things I regret then I burst into tears. Mark.

[Nightrider662]

I will say this thread has at least let me know that I'm not alone. Before I found this place I felt like I was the oldest virgin in the world. I just googled 40 year old virgins and one of the places it sent me was this thread.

[Nightrider662]

That's a nice website Mark. I really didn't realise that their were so many people like me. I know about feeling depressed and crying. The last few years I did a lot of it. I then wish I could go back to my 20's and do things differently. I'll be 41 in a few weeks too and my birthday always depresses me.

[lucasorion]

I've spent a lot of my twenties wishing I did things differently in my teens, now I'm at the tail end of my twenties and I don't want to spend my thirties thinking about the past. Whatever age you are when you fully commit to change, be glad you didn't wait longer instead of focusing on your past failure. I like to think of those previous periods of my life as if they were past lifetimes, the only lifetime that really matters now is the current one.

[The Bus]

There was also an occasion where I was in the hospital visiting my Nan and there was this man staring at me across the beds and his mother was laughing as he looked as though he was attracted to me. I was just about to go off in a huff and throw a chair across the other side of the room, but my Nan was gravely ill.

It's almost like... you have some pent up rage... or something.

[wergo]

There was also an occasion where I was in the hospital visiting my Nan and there was this man staring at me across the beds and his mother was laughing as he looked as though he was attracted to me. I was just about to go off in a huff and throw a chair across the other side of the room, but my Nan was gravely ill.

That seems to be the reaction of almost every woman I look at as though I'm attracted to them.

What are you SUPPOSED to do if you're attracted to someone that doesn't piss them off?

Flirting is hard.

[lucasorion]

Flirting is hard.

It get's easier when you become more comfortable with yourself, when you develop a public persona that showcases the best features of your real personality (what are those in your case?) instead of walking around like a blank slate. For example, humor is a huge part of my private persona - I'm the funny person in my family - but my coworkers have rarely seen that side of me.
"A personality is a terrible thing to waste"

[PacMan2006]

^^Good point...but honestly...I'm not sure if a level of comfort with yourself brings out your personality. At least for me, it's the level of comfort I have with/around OTHERS. You can talk to some people, and they would think I'm such a funny, happy person. Other people would think I'm some shy person who needs to speak up more often.

I remember when I went to college my last semester...I didn't feel comfortable in class with the people around me. So to them, I'm sure it seemed like I was shy. Right after class ended, though, I went to an internship that was 5 mins from school. I was in another enviornment where I had to interact with fellow interns (my age). But there was a different atmosphere there among the people (and it was just a lot more diverse it seemed)...so I felt more comfortable and enjoyed myself there. If you polled people in both places about me...people in my classes and at school would think I'm a major introvert, and people at my internship would think I'm a happy, fun, and humorous guy.

So for me, my personality is almost dependent upon specific people and situations.

[Mark Thompson]

That's the type of reaction I've had as well, wergo. I didn't mind him looking at me (I've got nothing against gays) it's just that he was staring at me as if he were forcing his sexuality on me and you've got to respect that. In the few experiences I've had with women they haven't been very desirable and I've been given quite a bit of grief in these situations where they've laughed.

I've looked at a woman as if I'm attracted to her and then I just see her face contort to disdain. In my college days when I was in a group project I said the idea that a member in the group had needed refining but because I wasn't satisfied she just slapped me in the face.

I've had a bunch of girls ask me the time on the bus and they've just laughed then copied off my voice as if there's something wrong with it. Someone even asked a girl out for me when I was at school and she outwardly said that she would never go out with a greasy slimeball like me.

NightRider: You're welcome. It's made me feel less so much alone as well but it's no less an artificial feeling given that these are only words conveyed through bytes. You sound like a decent guy along with wergo and Testy when he was on this forum (I hope he hasn't done anything silly). I can think of a few guys who've got on and couldn't even string 2 sentences together like in that experience I had in the fairground, but there're intelligent people like yourselves left at the wayside. It's seemingly good guys like yourself that deserve better but that's the whole thing of not living in an ideal world. Thanks for sharing your circumstances of being virgins in your 40's but you should never let stigmatism get in your way although that's easy for me to say - I may very well end up in the same situation you have presented us.

[Mark Thompson]

Update: I've just learned only too well the stigmatism out there as I've just been in a chatroom and this girl made fun of the fact that I'm still a virgin by derogatarily saying well I'm a 30-year-old virgin - not really, lol. I think it's just a case of finding someone understanding who'll take you for who you are, but I can find it very discouraging that people can be so cruel and heartless. You know what? I think I'd rather be a virgin because I'm so angry that the further I have disassociation with them the better!

[Nick Danger]

Update: I've just learned only too well the stigmatism out there as I've just been in a chatroom and this girl made fun of the fact that I'm still a virgin by derogatarily saying well I'm a 30-year-old virgin - not really, lol. I think it's just a case of finding someone understanding who'll take you for who you are, but I can find it very discouraging that people can be so cruel and heartless. You know what? I think I'd rather be a virgin because I'm so angry that the further I have disassociation with them the better!

Never make another response to anything this girl says. You don't need her.

This is a big disadvantage to online interaction. She would have been a lot more courteous if you could see her face.

[Mark Thompson]

Thanks for your reassurance Nick Danger. I don't suppose the 40-year-old virgin movie has made matters any better for people who fit under that category and they've even made a film about a 35 year old virgin: http://www.richmond.com/ae/output.aspx?Article_ID=4064246&Vertical_ID=2&tier=1&position=5
Seriously though I wouldn't be surprised if people still laughed if the person died one.

Interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2093562.stm

Haven't really looked at it but this might make you feel better: http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_03.31.05/plus/lovebites.html

Very interesting: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/15/9916?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&searchid=1071866603997_4741&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&minscore=5000&journalcode=pnas

See if you can understand this: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/14/7904?ijkey=051e23d20f70b9e31344e17f76d3bd47573685a b
:bye: for now!

[lucasorion]

Jeez Mark Thompson, you're starting to sound like our version of Magneto, ready to lead a virgin revolt against the non-virgin majority who oppresses us. Try not to take things so hard. I know what it is like to be someone who feel things deeply - but try to keep your reaction in proportion to what is happening. Someone makes some flip comment or you pick up a bad vibe, okay, move on and don't let it weigh on you so much. Part of functioning well in society is remembering that everyone else is walking around with feelings of discomfort, inadequacy, etc. and when they say or do something that offends you maybe it isn't coming from a place of strength on their part, but a place of weakness.

[lucasorion]

Jeez Mark Thompson, you're starting to sound like our version of Magneto, ready to lead a virgin revolt against the non-virgin majority who oppresses us. :) Try not to take things so hard. I know what it is like to be someone who feel things deeply - but try to keep your reaction in proportion to what is happening. Someone makes some flip comment or you pick up a bad vibe, okay, move on and don't let it weigh on you so much. Part of functioning well in society is remembering that everyone else is walking around with feelings of discomfort, inadequacy, etc. and when they say or do something that offends you maybe it isn't coming from a place of strength on their part, but a place of weakness.

[Mark Thompson]

Hehehe! Don't take it too hard that I've taken it too hard lucasorion, you've double-posted. No you're alright though I see what you mean and I guess I'm feeling alright at the moment. I never was one for doing anyone down, but I've been thinking of that movie lately and after marginally reading through this thread as well as having felt very depressed at my situation recently I can't even begin to imagine how anyone could satirise being in such an unfortunate position in life. Anyway, maybe later now.

[lucasorion]

"40 Year Old Virgin" is actually one of my favorite comedies of all time. I don't feel like the movie was cruel to the title character, I think they got the tone just right as far as explaining why he was what he was. We see how he let some bad experiences lead him to give up on that aspect of life, and how he grows as a man when he learns how to relate to women. Plus it is really funny.

[mllefoo]

P.S. The answer is me. I have been living a lie and must admit I have yet to experience the joy that is not related to produce.


I, too, have never experienced the joys of produce.

[pi]

At some point during the movies, she asked me if I thought we'd have sex at some point in the future (she's not loose by any standard, but she's very open and direct). I paused for a moment and said "hm...well...probably not" in a somewhat sarcastic tone characteristic of me. The look on her face, needless to say, was one of confusion. :)

Just like guys, girls use humor as a way to engage a topic. She brought it up and you did ok with it, but i think that was her way of bringing it up. You can probably close the deal next date, or the following one.

(this is from a few months ago, so i'm not sure if there was an update)

-p

[pi]

Hehehe... now-adays.. In a gym, the reason to be intimidated is not how muscular people around you are but how many Muscular Gay People hit on you.

Because gay guys make it their goal in life to try and convert unassuming hetero guys at the gym......

The gym definately can help with confidence (if you see a difference). I don't really have much to offer in here because there is way too much to say, and the only real change will come when each individual commits to change.

-p

[Mark Thompson]

I’ve been getting a lot of bad vibes recently particularly from my Uncle, a lot of discouraging information like he’s stopping me from doing what I want to do or what’d be best for me. At this moment I feel though everyone is against me not begrudging me but finding me funny. This has been preying on my mind and I can’t find anyone understanding. Even the people like yourselves in my mind now I feel as though they’re laughing at me and I just want to go away as far as I can so that no-one would know what has happened to me. I feel completely and utterly riled back in my habit that sometimes I feel like screaming. Maybe I need someone to take a look at my life and grab it by the reins to say to me that every area of it is nothing to be ashamed about and that it can be sorted, but I’m beginning to think that it can’t be. I hope this is not going to get offensive but the way I look at people in life who get on I see them as being at a vantage point and because they can they cannot resist laughing at people like me. They may well try to cover it up but oh god can I see it. Maybe it’s a harmless reaction caused by their newly found situation that I’ve no awareness of but couldn’t that be me just making an excuse for them? That’s what I mean about getting as far away as I can and right now, but most definitely in the future that’d be a wish I’d want to come true because I can’t stand people nitpicking at me. Analogising if there were a field of shit I have to tread through to get to the other side in order for me to improve my life then I would understand but I don’t see that being the case. All I see is rapidly decreasing chances and myself earmarked for doom. Maybe I have brought this upon myself by spending too much time procrastinating and not doing, but even when I come to do them I feel as though I’ve no longer got the tools for the trade. I thought time would make things better but it’s only made it worse as a testing ground for my deeply-rooted habits. Maybe it’s because I’m in the same environments and I need a change of scenery to break out of them as the old associations are reminding me then putting me back to where I was. These forums I’ve been looking at for one thing have made me feel a whole lot better for one respect not having a girlfriend but that’s a different issue. What’s been said was just me to a ‘T’ and if I hadn’t looked at it then well I’d have felt a hell of a lot more inadequate than I do now. I’ve been doing a lot of topical searching on the Internet recently for this reason and it makes you feel less lonely. I feel totally and utterly abandoned as well as don’t feel human no-more, but more sub-human. I feel wasteful and detached from reality. My habit-state is just getting me into a guilt trip where when I do something I cram it all in and don’t feel motivated when I let myself fallback because when I get back up again to do something it never achieves anything then it becomes a vicious circle. Maybe I need a bit more encouragement and I have responded to that in the past, but now it just seems like everyone just wants me to waste my life. If that is the reason then I hope maybe it should give me the confidence to pick myself up and put two fingers up at them, but I’ve got no support so I don’t know what to think.

[lucasorion]

The way you express yourself sometimes makes me wonder if you might have Asperger's syndrome, I have no doubt that you are depressed. The internet is not a refuge or a suitable treatment for the emotional distress you have, you need to find professional help.
I was moderately to seriously depressed for about 8-10 years, and I refused to seek help because I was too proud to admit I needed it. Eventually I started to pull myself out of the pit, but it would have been easier (and I would no doubt be further along on my path) if I took hold of one of the available hands reaching down to me.

[Mark Thompson]

Thanks for that lucasorion, it's just that I feel so totally and utterly abandoned. It's come to a time now where I'll just have to try things whether that's a tablet regime or what have you. I feel that this invented state I've been in too long and there'll be no reverse effects because I am on my own and have invented what I can only call a transfixed state.

I believe that this will stop me from getting on in life and part of realisation at this stage in my life is that'll also stop me from having someone. The fact that I have acknowledged it rather than later maybe is a saving grace and it isn't impossible as of yet.

I guess the real hurting will come when and if I actually get down to it, but I do feel as though it is a state I cannot shake off. It's like an automatic programmed state and I feel as though I'm dead sometimes. Likewise, it's something I invented myself and I can't get out of it.

[Mark Thompson]

Never make another response to anything this girl says. You don't need her.

This is a big disadvantage to online interaction. She would have been a lot more courteous if you could see her face.

Not necessarily. My own Uncle and I even think my own family thinks my situation is something to be laughed about. We were talking about a subject on youth and he came on to say: "Yeah and how many one can bed" then he looked at me as if he was laughing at me.

I would say to NightRider, Testy and Waco to never give up. I know it's easy for me to say but I think 40's is still young it's just that most people lose it before that. I think it's wrong that people should laugh at this and if I caught any of my friends laughing at someone at this age then they would no longer be a friend of mine.

[Mark Thompson]

This may be the last time, but I've got plans to see the doctor and I must admit I've seen him before though didn't finish what I was supposed to do. I don't know if I'll ever lose my virginity and at times I've thought it's because I'm incompatible with this world as well as feel that I have some mental damage. I live in a secluded town and there aren't very nice people, but I guess I'll just have to trundle on. I think a lot of it's to do with what circumstances you fall into like the mathematician neatly described in this link: http://forums.men.style.com/thread.jspa?messageID=220639&tstart=0
I'm similar to you lucasorion in that my family doesn't really have anything to do with me and what makes my situation worse is that I'm long-term unemployed so instead of being a loser I'm a double-loser, but maybe it's of my own making. I shall try in my own linear way and you're right when you said to start your thirties as well as that goes for forties (life begins at forty remember?) I've not read through this thread thoroughly, but you look very good lucasorion and sound a very decent person. Best of luck my friend.

EDIT: It is our duty to let this thread know if we ever lose our virginity.

[lucasorion]

thanks, one thing I want to clear up is that my family doesn't "have nothing to do with me" - but we have just drifted apart and don't communicate well, which I think came about in part because of my long period of depression. My sister tells me we have a much healthier family than most people she knows, but I guess I have high expectations for what a family (and any relationship) should be. As far as employment goes, I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do, but I'm fortunate that I'm pretty handy when it comes to solving computer problems, et al. so I haven't ever felt too stressed about finding work in the interim period before I have that "Eureka!" moment (if it ever comes) and know what work I want to do for the rest of my life.

I'm glad you're going to see someone, but remember that many people don't find the right therapist right away so don't despair if it isn't working with him.

[ZigZag]

I work for a television production company and we are currently making a sensitive documentary for Channel 4 in the UK about the issue of involuntary celibacy amongst men.

We are looking for three participants to send to a long established institution which is designed to help them better understand and hopefully overcome their condition.

We are also looking for people to give relevant input into the various implications/causes of involuntary celibacy.

We totally understand that this is a sensitive issue and all correspondence will be conducted in the utmost confidentiality.

If you are interested in participating or require further information, please contact me on juliej@zigzag.uk.com.

Many thanks and best wishes

Julie Jackson

[Mark Thompson]

That last post got deleted, but I've still got the e-mail containing the message and I'm going to keep a look out for it. If I think it's interesting enough I might PM you lucasorion about sending you a copy if you're interested but I wouldn't like to be apart of the programme because people are going to see you outside. I wouldn't quite class myself in that vein yet as I haven't tried and you could class me in as being much like the 29 year old at the bottom of this page: http://almost40virgin.blogspot.com/2006/05/miriam-calls-me.html

To NightRider, Testy and Wergo - here's a blog of a 44-year-old virgin: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21212100&postID=113773771576836222 Goodbye now and take care.

[Mark Thompson]

I told you guys not to give up: http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/agonyaunt/question1388.html

Update: The doctor's put me on antidepressants and he said they may build up my confidence. That's me for a couple of weeks then and I'll see you yall.

EDIT: Sorry! Good for you my friend. I don't expect anytime soon for me tho'

[lucasorion]

From the article you linked:
Do you just want sex for its own sake? That's fine, so long as she's after the same casual, experimental thing. Or do you want to make love, to cement the bond between you and see if you and she could form a stable long-term partnership? It seems to be harder for women than for men to disentangle themselves from a relationship once they've made love, so wouldn't it be a good next step to talk about where she and you want your relationship to go? Do you both, for example, want commitment, marriage, mortgage, babies and the whole nine yards?

yeesh, do they have to talk about marriage before having sex in order for it to be a meaningful, non-casual thing? That woman seems pretty out of touch.

By the way, this thread is starting to look like an IM chat transcript - where all my virgins at? Don't give up guys. I for one am really detecting progress since I've been working out and getting more comfortable around attractive women - even today I was complimented on a t-shirt I was wearing by a rather fetching 20-something-year-old while standing in line at the deli. It didn't seem like it was flirting or anything, but that sort of thing hasn't happened in the past. The funny thing is that I'm only just starting to come out of my shell, and only beginning the process of getting my body to where I want it with my workouts (I'm finally not semi-neutralizing my exercise regime with poor eating habits, which has slowed my progress previously), so I am anticipating getting to the point in the months ahead where I actually feel like I can expect some women to find me attractive when I'm out and about.

[Parcher]

Good to hear Lucasorion. Like I wrote some time ago, I believe working out is a solid approach to build confidence. And on top of that, hey, a lot of girls dig atleast some muscle.

[Testy]

You sound like a decent guy along with wergo and Testy when he was on this forum (I hope he hasn't done anything silly).

I'm still here, just haven't checked into this forum in a while. I'm taking Zoloft now for depression, and it's helping a little bit but I'm still quite depressed. No changes in my social situation, and I realize that in a few months I will become a 41 year old virgin. And the year after that, a 42 year old virgin, etc until the depression becomes overwhelming I suppose.

I've been perusing some of the Internet dating sites, but that just makes the depression worse as I realize that I am not what most women are looking for. And I still can't even begin to imagine how, if by some chance we were to meet, I would explain my situation. It's just too humiliating...

[SuperJim88]

I've been perusing some of the Internet dating sites, but that just makes the depression worse as I realize that I am not what most women are looking for.

"You're not what most women are looking for" only because you said you're not what most women are looking for. Have you ask them? Have all the women in the world specifically told you, "you are not who I'm looking for?" Quit beating your self up and send tons of messages to the chicks on the dating sites already.

Sorry to sound so strong on you, but you've got see that you're the only one who's denying you some of the pleasure of this world.

[PacMan2006]

^^While good advice, let's not all pretend to know what it must feel like to be 40 and never have been in a relationship and/or dated. I see where Testy is coming from...I mean, even if he DID meet someone, it would have to be extremely awkward to have to sit there and tell someone that throughout your 40 years on earth, you have never once had a relationship/sex/whatever. Not to mention a lack of experience and depression is going to equal in more anxiety and a feeling of awkwardness even if he DID find one or two women who saw his online profile and wanted to meet up for a date.

I mean, hell, I find it awkward if a girl sees my internet profile on a site or I talk to her on a phone and the inevitable question of, "So, tell me about your last relationship" comes up and I basically have to give a 10 minute explanation on why I'm 22 and have never had a girlfriend. I can't imagine having to do that and be 41.

So yes, while I agree with you that, hey, he needs to just get out there and do it--it's not going to get any easier at 42, 43, 44, etc. At the same point, there are probably a ton of little things we don't realize about that specific situation because we cannot relate to it whatsoever. I can only imagine how it must feel...and just imagining it is scary and a little depressing in and of itself.

[lucasorion]

It should never be depressing to be taking a step that improves your life. Yeah, you'll feel bad you didn't do it earlier, like I do about how long I waited before really trying to get in shape, but that should be overridden by the positive feeling that you are doing something about the situation. It's all in how you choose to frame it in your mind.

[PacMan2006]

^^But what I'm saying is...who's to say that if you are 40 years old and have never had a relationship that you HAVEN'T taken steps to improve your life? Truth be told, I would think very much the opposite. Now, you can get into semantics on if they took the correct steps...but steps nontheless. So when you get into a situation where you look around and realize 40 years has passed you by without any intimate relationship--physical or emotional with someone of the opposite sex--that has to be immensely depressing and flat out frustrating. Again...I'm 22 and am flat out frustrated by the people I have had to interact with, what's considered cool, people not being reliable, and witnessing other people being more happy and having things come easier to them when I see that there's no reason for my life to NOT be like that, too. I can't imagine experiencing this for another 20 years. While I'm not depressed to the extreme of giving up hope or thinking I'm a cursed soul, I certainly would have a messed up perspective of myself and the society 20 years later if nothing much had changed. I would feel kind of damaged at 40+ years.

What someone stated here is true...what kids 16 and above have already learned regarding relationships and interacting with people, these guys probably never have experienced. So again, while they shouldn't curl up in the fetal position sucking their thumb and crying about their life, I think it's short sighted to say or think that it's just SO easy and available for them if they just get out there and "do it." I can't imagine that in their 40 years, these guys haven't attempted to get out there and just "do it." And the constant failure--or at least, the lack of success they ideally envisioned--probably has helped to further their downward spiral.

[Mark Thompson]

Although I wasn't going to post back until if or any progress was made on my part (this should be a permanent thread), I just felt that I had to after reading Testy's last post. That really depressed me and my sympathy is with him. I was going to say something positive but then I thought who the hell do I think I am? and how can I be so arrogant? So I would like to apologise for what I have put in my previous posts. I have been put on Fluoxetine capsules and I've already been back to the doctor where I don't think they're having any effect yet, but he's highered the dosage. It can take a few months, but I'm hoping they'll raise my spirits and naturally make me more sociable. The main problem I have though with where I am in life now is that I think I haven't got anything to offer anyone and I am one of the most different people you'll ever meet. I'm extremely quiet and I don't think I'm lively enough to be fun around any girl. I think being in solitude for many years has damaged me and it has kinda sucked me in where I've shut my brain down to fend off the bordom. I can't get out of it because I've put myself under that condition for so long and it feels like I don't want to as well.

Laucasorian, you should be a doctor as my GP thinks I might have AS. :)

[Testy]

What someone stated here is true...what kids 16 and above have already learned regarding relationships and interacting with people, these guys probably never have experienced.

That is true in my case. That's one reason that I don't go to the mall very often these days. You can't go there without seeing all the teenagers hanging out, and the boyfriend/girlfriend action going on. I mean, these kids are getting more action in line at the food court than I've ever had in my life!

Seeing this only adds to the depression, as I begin to wonder "What the hell is wrong with me?" I'm chronologically 40 years old, but emotionally in many ways I'm stuck in the adolescent stage. While most 16-18 year olds have had dates, held hands, been kissed, probably even had sex - I have not.

In a way, I think I've managed to "turn off" the part of my brain that controls emotions regarding others. It's much like the scene in The Terminator when Sarah is asking about the women in Reese's life in the future, and in response he says something like "Pain can be controlled - you just disconnect it."

This is also something that scares me about potentially dating someone with kids, especially teenage kids. I would feel so out of my element knowing that her kids are more socially experienced than I am. These kids would expect someone that their mom is dating to be a mature, man-of-the-world type person perhaps. I wouldn't have the first clue how to try and "fit in" with this type of environment.

As far as the antidepressants, the most noticeable effect is that it has greatly reduced my irritability. Before the ad, sometimes the slightest things could set me off, and I might say or do things that were out of character. I'm quite sure it was the depression that led to the irritability. I used to go through keyboards at home on a regular basis :) Now my temper is on a much more even keel.

[das Monkey]

• Testy •

I realize that in a few months I will become a 41 year old virgin. And the year after that, a 42 year old virgin, etc until the depression becomes overwhelming I suppose.

And I still can't even begin to imagine how, if by some chance we were to meet, I would explain my situation. It's just too humiliating...
I am not a doctor; I just play one on the Internet. I haven't read the entire thread -- just see it pop up from time to time and read the most recent posts -- so forgive me if this has been suggested/rejected already.

See a "professional", and not the kind with a degree on her wall. It reads like you have a lot of anxiety hanging over your head, and it's overwhelming you. You don't know how to relate to women initially, you fear what would happen if you got close to one and wouldn't know how to act, you find your situation humiliating to explain, etc. It's all too much. You can't wave a magic wand and become experienced at <i>relationships</i>, but you <i>can</i> pay someone to give you some pointers and experience with certain other areas.

I seem to approach every situation like an engineer would, and I find that when I am overwhelmed with a large problem where most of it is seemingly out of my control, I break it into pieces and attack the few areas I <i>can</i> control, and it makes the rest potentially more manageable. It seems to me that for you (and some others in this thread), a lot of medium-sized issues are compounding into a giant weight on your shoulders. You can't attack all of them at once, but maybe if you clear up the whole "virgin" thing, it will be one less issue to stress about, one less thing to "explain". And maybe you'll feel more comfortable around women in general. At the end of the day, it's just sex, and while it's fun and can have great meaning in the right circumstances, it's not that big a deal. Knock it out, and cross it off your list. Maybe things will get easier once that's out of the way ... or maybe I don't know wtf I'm talking about. ;)

das

[wergo]

The biggest problem I can see with hiring a professional is that it's not gonna gve you any experience in sex as a two-way street. You can pay her to do stuff to you, but doing stuff to her is usually a pretty strict no-no. Even kissing isn't allowed. (Or have I just seen too many bad movies?)

Don't most professionals make their living off of married men who are fed up with having to reciprocate or make any effort in the "give and take" department? I'm not sure you can replicate the whole "girlfriend" experience on even the most basic level with a paid professional whose very stock in trade is being sexually available WITHOUT being emotionally intimate.

[das Monkey]

Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting it as a substitute for <i>anything</i>. It wouldn't be about learning to have a girlfriend or learning to please a woman or anything like that. It just seems that you guys have so many anxiety factors hanging over your head, that if you could just knock one or two of them off the list, it might be easier to tackle some of the others. Like I said, it won't make you experienced with <i>relationships</i>, but it may help you avoid the anxiety of sticking your zoinks in someone's hoo-hah and the fear of embarrassment from complete inexperience (which is what I'm reading between the lines in some of these posts).

Hey, it may still be a terrible idea -- like you, my "knowledge" on this subject is limited to crappy movies and that <i>Cathouse</i> series on HBO -- but I want you to understand what I'm suggesting clearly before we decide how terrible it is. ;) Be aware, though, that most guys lose their virginity in pretty uninspired ways, and paying a professional hardly seems less dignified than picking up some drunk chick at a bar or "doin' it" in a closet at some lame high school party. And if you're lucky, maybe she'll be willing to teach you some things if you're up front about your situation. They are professionals in the service industry, and I assume they make much of their money on repeat business, so it seems logical they'd treat you well so you'd come back.

I dunno. It's hard for me to put myself in your shoes on this issue, but I do know what it's like to have a bunch of little stressful things culminate into a massive mental roadblock. You can't go out and buy a girlfriend (from the US), you can't take "How to be in a relationship" at the community college, and you can't download years of experience from the <i>Enterprise</i> computers into your neural net. But you can cross "virgin" off your list, and perhaps that will help get the emotional ball rolling. Perhaps not. :shrug:

das

[Mark Thompson]

Very interesting... I think you Americans are lucky since we don't have anything professional in that area here in the UK let alone legalised prostitution which I understand you have in Las Vegas. I bet there're more virgins in their 40's and upwards than publicised because it can't be as with the stigma forced on it in our society. Also, no-one's going to parade the fact and I think it's attitudes of people that need changing which will only solve this problem as well as prevent it happening.

[deadlax]

I think Das's advice here is pretty solid. Especially the part about sex having the ability to have great meaning, but in the end it is just sex. While hiing an escort may not relieve any of the relationship issues, it will shift the burden to something else. And don't worry about not being experienced in sex. There are many many people in this world who lack experience in that department.

[das Monkey]

• Mark Thompson •

legalised prostitution which I understand you have in Las Vegas
It's not legal in Vegas, specifically