Confronting porn's double standards - new article tells it like it is

[art]

http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0630,taormino,73932,24.html

There's a new article (see address above) by Tristan Taormino in Village Voice about the straight porn industry's hypocritical double standards in relation to male bisexuality versus female bisexuality. In case you've been living on Mars, the straight industry accepts female bisexuality but rejects male bisexuality. I know I've covered this before but I thought it was interesting that important people are now noticing this. Moreover, it's become clear that the straight porn industry has been using the fear of AIDS as an excuse to keep out bisexual male performers. This despite the fact that there are many healthy bisexual males. Personally, I'd rather have sex with a healthy bisexual guy than with a straight guy who has a questionable health status.

[Frankenlola]

I'd rather have sex with a healthy bisexual guy than with a straight guy who has a questionable health status.

That is a very good point. I am sure as well that a bisexual guy would have sex with another man before a straight guy would. You can't argue that logic. :confused:


P.S.

:horse:

[art]

There is nothing in any study or any figures to suggest that anal sex between two healthy guys is any riskier than anal sex between a healthy man and woman. In fact, the risk of transmission in both such cases is zero. The anal sex act is not risky at all provided both participants are healthy, and that's the crux of it.

[Jack Straw]

http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0630,taormino,73932,24.html

There's a new article (see address above) by Tristan Taormino in Village Voice about the straight porn industry's hypocritical double standards in relation to male bisexuality versus female bisexuality. In case you've been living on Mars, the straight industry accepts female bisexuality but rejects male bisexuality. I think you could say the same thing about the public in general as well. It's not limited to the porn industry.

[art]

Jack Straw,

I personally don't think the straight porn industry's bisexual double standard is reflective of the public. Maybe it's reflective of some of the people it tailors its product to, but not the public in general. That's because the public in general can smell a double standard a mile away.

One critical point is that the porn industry goes beyond merely "tailoring" to actually "promoting" the double standard. It's trying to create a cultural notion of female bisexual acceptability but male bisexual rejection. Because the porn industry is the only industry to present real sex on screen, it has a privileged position, one which it has abused in my humble opinion.

[Vandelay_Inds]

Of course there is a double standard. Lesbian intimacy is beautiful, while men are utterly disgusting. Not that I watch porn though, but the last thing straight men want to see when aroused is two dudes getting it on.

[art]

Vandely Inds,

Your preference is not intellectually justifiable - it's merely a preference. You're entitled to it - I'm not suggesting that you should change what you like. Your fetish is your fetish.

[Vandelay_Inds]

But isn't porn an industry that must operate in the free marketplace? Why would its producers introduce into it features most of its customers do not want?

And no, aesthetics is not mathematics. ;)

[NCMojo]

Yaay! Art's back! And he's playing all the tracks from his greatest hits album!

[Lateralus]

If porn movies had bisexual man scenes in them I would not watch. If you want to watch two guys going at it just rent gay porn... I'm sure it is all over the place.

[dvd-4-life]

Why does porn for the most part show younger people making love-why not people in there 60's or 70's or 80's -why because there is no market for it .Shame on Vivid,VCA,Huster,Red Light District and other porn compaines for not employing Kitty Fox.

[wildcatlh]

Is this actually art, or is it an art-bot reposting the same stuff he's been doing for years?

[art]

Vandelay Inds,

Where is this great clamor to keep out male-male contact from straight porn movies? Do you have any figures to support your claim? Show me a random survey.

Even if a random survey was conducted and found that 80% opposed it (i.e. male-male), how does this justify the 100% ban as it now stands?

The simple overall fact is that selective homophobia is driving the ban.

[art]

I simply posted this new topic to show you that other people in the media are talking about this important issue, one that I brought to the fore about 2 years ago.

[wildcatlh]

Vandelay Inds,

Where is this great clamor to keep out male-male contact from straight porn movies? Do you have any figures to support your claim? Show me a random survey.

Even if a random survey was conducted and found that 80% opposed it (i.e. male-male), how does this justify the 100% ban as it now stands?

The simple overall fact is that selective homophobia is driving the ban.

I know this is futile... but...

The porn industry is not in business to make social statements.

The porn industry is in business to make money.

When you're a business, and want to make money, you make a product that you believe your customers want to purchase.

If you successfully determine what your customers want, you will succeed. If you do not put what your customers want into your product, you will fail.

There is no great clamor to keep male-male interaction out of "straight" porn, but that is not the issue. If there was a great clamor to put it in, it would be in, because the porn industry wants to make money.

Now, if you can show me that the porn industry loses significant business because they keep male-male interaction out of "straight" porn, I will agree with you. Since you have shown nothing of the sort, you continue to be wrong.

[jw2299]

This message is hidden because art is on your ignore list.

art...
-ohbfrank-

[art]

Wildcat LH,

You say "the porn industry is not in business to make social statements". Oh, really? Then how come straight porn protagonists keep crowing about how "respectable" their product is and how it's going "mainstream"? If that isn't a social statement, I don't know what is.

Not to mention the deception it keeps propagating about being "straight".

[art]

Wildkat LH,

Also, one porn movie does not generally a statement make. However, when you combine all the straight porn movies and observe the consistent, across-the-board ban on male-male interactions, it's undeniable that a social statement is being made en masse. This is absolutely undeniable. It's the only industry that makes movies containing both men and women but in which men are specifically banned from touching each other. And that's even before you start considering the actual sex.

[Vandelay_Inds]

Vandelay Inds,

Where is this great clamor to keep out male-male contact from straight porn movies? Do you have any figures to support your claim? Show me a random survey.

Even if a random survey was conducted and found that 80% opposed it (i.e. male-male), how does this justify the 100% ban as it now stands?

The simple overall fact is that selective homophobia is driving the ban.

I have no idea what the porn industry is like. I don't like/watch porn. I simply stated what I believe to be most men's preferences, based on living on this planet.

It would be like me demanding that MTV include a daily program of jazz and classical music. I bet you I can find at least 5% of their audience that would enjoy such an innovation. But since it would be so jarring and out of place with the majority of people that make up their market, they would be wise no to include it.

Like WildcatLH said, if there is a market for X product, you can bet a business will take advantage of the opportunity and fill that niche. Why don't YOU start a studio that specializes in male bisexual action?

[art]

Vanderlay,

I'm not necessarily looking for a studio that specializes in male bisexual action. I'm simply wanting the male-male contact taboo in straight porn to be broken. I don't want to see tons of guys having sex with each other and a couple of chicks thrown in for decoration. I want to see Mr Marcus suddenly extend his tongue and lick Lee Stone's balls as he's pumping some chick.

[wildcatlh]

Vanderlay,

I'm not necessarily looking for a studio that specializes in male bisexual action. I'm simply wanting the male-male contact taboo in straight porn to be broken. I don't want to see tons of guys having sex with each other and a couple of chicks thrown in for decoration. I want to see Mr Marcus suddenly extend his tongue and lick Lee Stone's balls as he's pumping some chick.


And you have to realize that, despite your assertations to the contrary, you are in a very, very small minority when it comes to people who view straight porn.

That type of scene, for example, would make most viewers not want to watch such a movie. Such movie would then be a financial failure, which would cause Studio X never to make such scenes again, which would lead to your complaining.

(why am I even bothering....)

[The_Infidel]

Vandelay,

With all due respect, don't even waste your breath. Art has been feuling this same, tired argument for a long time now, and refuses to acknowledge any valid viewpoints and anything even resembling truth. His fantasy world is his alone, and he's hell-bent on sucking us all into it.

[art]

Wildcat,

You're making a huge assertion with no basis in fact. Where are the figures to support your argument? At the same time, I'm not denying that some of the older, more conservative generation would be opposed to it. The studios could always put advisory stickers on the box to warn them - such as "two minutes of male-male contact might be deeply offensive to certain peoples".

[Lemdog]

There is 23 replies to this thread 10 are from art. I'm convinced that he is trying to increase his post count. Don't worry art you will be a DVD Talk Special Edition soon enough.

[Vandelay_Inds]

Vanderlay,

I'm not necessarily looking for a studio that specializes in male bisexual action. I'm simply wanting the male-male contact taboo in straight porn to be broken. I don't want to see tons of guys having sex with each other and a couple of chicks thrown in for decoration. I want to see Mr Marcus suddenly extend his tongue and lick Lee Stone's balls as he's pumping some chick.

That's alright. You'd like that. That's your fantasy. Mine is to see Nicole Kidman in a feature-length presentation strutting about in a tight skirt. Do I have the right to demand everyone else watch it?

I understand you're an advocate for something new, and new things always find resistance. For my part I tell you that I don't *ever* want to see any man prancing besides my Nicole.

[XavierMike]

Wildkat LH,

Also, one porn movie does not generally a statement make. However, when you combine all the straight porn movies and observe the consistent, across-the-board ban on male-male interactions, it's undeniable that a social statement is being made en masse. This is absolutely undeniable. It's the only industry that makes movies containing both men and women but in which men are specifically banned from touching each other. And that's even before you start considering the actual sex.


The only social statement this is making is that there is too little interest in male-male action in straight porn for porn companies to make a profit. I have been to hundreds of pro basketball games in my life, and I have yet to see one pimp on pimp boxing match. Does this mean that the NBA is making a social statement against pimp on pimp violence? No, just that not enough people want to see it to make it profitable.

[art]

Xavier Mike,

Basketball is advertised as basketball, boxing as boxing. What you get is what it says it is.

Straight porn, on the other hand, is deceptive. It shows straight action but also includes female homosexual action as part of its "oh, by the way, we're cool with female-female". It's a con designed by people who are interested in tricking society into believing that this inclusion, and this inclusion only, is what is kosher for straight people. It's deception-plus.

[Big Quasimodo]

1st, you're right that there is a double standard - but it's not the industry that creates the double standard, it's the market. Straight males make up the bulk of the market and due to a multitude of factors, which you can feel free to label in whatever way you wish, straight males will not support a product that features male on male sex. On the other hand, straight males will support a product that features female on female sex (and I would argue that most of it is not presented as "homosexual" sex - butch dykes in a straight porn movie would not go over well either).

You've got the cart before the horse when you blame the industry as the enitity that determines the content of their product. The market determines the content and the industry satisfies the market.

Proof is in the pudding - the market you represent and advocate can't get their product produced en masse. The industry does not see the profit potential. Or do you think that they're in it for something other than the money? :lol:

[The_Infidel]

Ah, but you're forgetting: art feels that straight males all harbor secret homosexual tendencies, and just won't admit it.

[MartinBlank]

Maybe art works for some sort of special interest group, like the NRA or NARAL or PETA, but his group is about dudes gettting it on.

Either that or he just needs a hobby. Like watching movies. Watching movies is a good hobby. ;)

[sjrab16]

Xavier Mike,

Basketball is advertised as basketball, boxing as boxing. What you get is what it says it is.

Straight porn, on the other hand, is deceptive. It shows straight action but also includes female homosexual action as part of its "oh, by the way, we're cool with female-female". It's a con designed by people who are interested in tricking society into believing that this inclusion, and this inclusion only, is what is kosher for straight people. It's deception-plus.

I do not pay attention to how "straight porn" is advertised, but do they really even use the term straight. If anything they advertise it for straight men, and then anybody else who wants to watch it can. So I am really not thinking it is deception.

Now that I think about it though, I cannot believe I got involved in this thread because Art will only believe what he wants and everybody else is is a conservative and hates gays

[Adiras]

Jesus Art, you're a *** with an agenda, we get it. Now its time for you to get over it. Fucking attention whore.

[Graftenberg]

In the past two years has anybody been swayed by art?

[Giantrobo]

There's a double standard concerning Bi-sexual females and Bi-sexual Males in mainstream porn and that standard is tilted towards Bi-sexual females...let me think...


I DON'T GIVE A FUCK!!! There are more of us who like it that way then those who don't. You want more of the other stuff MAKE YOUR OWN PORN OR START UP A COMPANY!!. :lol:

[The_Infidel]

In the past two years has anybody been swayed by art?
If you mean has anyone admitted their latent homosexual desires, I don't believe so. I know I personally haven't been swayed. Of course, I can only speak for myself...but then, according to art, I'm in denial, along with everyone else.

[pjflyer]

I'm sure this has been brought up before in "art" threads. But, how much straight sex is there in gay porn aimed at gay males?

[devilshalo]

I finally get it...

art = another rehashed thread. -rolleyes-

I love how you've asked for survey numbers when you've never been able to provide your own.

[The_Infidel]

Why would you need numbers when you have dictionary facts?

[spainlinx0]

It doesn't matter if you provide survey numbers are not. If you showed him the survey where nearly 100% of straight men didn't want to see that in their "straight" porn he would simply say that they lied to the surveyors, and are just scared to come out and profess their undying love for other men's cocks.

[Houstondon]

Art (the guy with no statistics who continually calls for others to provide them):
"It's the only industry that makes movies containing both men and women but in which men are specifically banned from touching each other."

This is completely false. I'd suggest that a large number of "straight" porn releases contain male "touching" male action. Any movie with DAP, double anal (especially bareback as most straight movies are), has such contact. Maybe that's to please Art alone though... ;)

[MartinBlank]

In the past two years has anybody been swallowed by art?
Fixed. :D

[devilshalo]

In the words of Melvin Udall, "Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here."

[tenaciousdave]

From the article Art posted.

An extension of the unspoken no-crossing-the-lines rule is that if you do it, be discreet or you'll be blacklisted in both industries.

So you have no issue issue with the gay porn industries' blatant double standard?

It's clear to me that you have your own double standards to get over before you criticize someone else's.

[The Bus]

Your fetish is your fetish.

I couldn't say this better myself.

[roadbikeguy13]

I'd like to personally thank Art for shedding light on this topic. He has showed me that it is OK to frolic in another man's masculinity and realize that I am still straight.

Who wants to drink the Kool-Ade next?

[Giantrobo]

Art (the guy with no statistics who continually calls for others to provide them):
"It's the only industry that makes movies containing both men and women but in which men are specifically banned from touching each other."

This is completely false. I'd suggest that a large number of "straight" porn releases contain male "touching" male action. Any movie with DAP, double anal (especially bareback as most straight movies are), has such contact. Maybe that's to please Art alone though... ;)

I agree. I downloaded an Ashely Blue sample video where 2 guys had their cocks in her ass. There was no way to do that without touching. The cocks were packed together like 2 sardines in her ass.

[Bandoman]

I'll bet a farthing to the Queen's Crown that everyone wants to watch male-on-male action in their straight porn, but just won't admit it for fear of being stigmatized.

[art]

I think it's interesting and instructive that my issue is resonating with important people in the media. Here's my prediction: if the straight porn industry doesn't change, it will find itself on the skids, both legally and culturally.

[MovieExchange]

I think someone needs to put "fantasyland" as Art's location.

Seriously, Art... can't you get it through your head that the majority of straight men do not want to watch men getting it on with each other? The porn industry is hardly one of morals or limitations, so if they thought that adding a scene of two men assbanging and cockgobbling each other would increase sales of movies intended to cater to straight men, they'd add it.

Hell, even women say that while men might find the idea of two women making love is a turn-on, most women do not feel the same about watching two men going at it.

[Bandoman]

I think it's interesting and instructive that my issue is resonating with important people in the media. Here's my prediction: if the straight porn industry doesn't change, it will find itself on the skids, both legally and culturally.

Here's my prediction: if the straight porn indistry doesn't change, no one will give a shit. Well, maybe a couple of people, but no one important.

[The Bus]

I think it's interesting and instructive that my issue is resonating with important people in the media.

rotfl

[art]

The mere fact that people with access to the mainstream media are taking up this issue is going to be very important. And I also believe that the straight porn industry has nowhere to hide on this issue. It's been zapped with something it doesn't know how to handle. The simple fact that straight porn productions won't even allow men to touch each other with their hands is proof positive that it's homophobia.

[TheBigDave]

A gay activist's column in an alternative NY tabloid is not "important people in mainstream media". Don't bother bringing up this topic again until it's on the cover of Newsweek.

[art]

TheBigDave,

Tristan Taormino is not a "gay activist". Stop putting everybody who brings up this issue in the "gay activist" category. It might suit you to have them all boxed up but I can assure you this issue is resonating beyond the box and into the mainstream.

[deadlax]

What are the odds that art "IS" Tristan Taormino? How's that for blowing your mind?

[Houstondon]

Tristan Taormino made all of four pornos in her porn "career", writes a column for a decidedly non-mainstream rag, and describes herself as:
"I don't really identify with the label 'bisexual', nor does it feel like it accurately describes me...I see myself as queer, since queer to me is not just about who I love or lust, but it's about my culture, my community, and my politics. The truth is, even if I were with a heterosexual guy, I'd be a queer dyke."

If you think that makes her "mainstream", I suggest you must live in San Francisco, Holland, or a small enclave in NYC. The "issue" isn't resonating with anyone of importance outside of the gay and lesbian community and as far as porn being in financial woes; that would be because the industry was caught unable to adapt to the technologies of piracy, not an unwillingness to make porn for any audience with a buck.

As far as Tristan=art; I rather doubt it because she tends to be far more articulate than art and is able to carry on a conversation that amounts to more than a series of taunts that will soon get him kicked off DVD Talk. :)

[TheBigDave]

Tristan Taormino is not a "gay activist".

I don't know how you define the term "gay activist". But I went to her website, and it looks to me like she's a "gay activist".

She's given keynote speeches at National Coming Out Day and LGBT Pride Week. And she gives college lectures on the Gay Marriage Debate, the Transgender Community and "Queer Sex".

[Vandelay_Inds]

The mere fact that people with access to the mainstream media are taking up this issue is going to be very important. And I also believe that the straight porn industry has nowhere to hide on this issue. It's been zapped with something it doesn't know how to handle. The simple fact that straight porn productions won't even allow men to touch each other with their hands is proof positive that it's homophobia.

Can one not want to watch gay sexual acts without being homophobe?

[Puzznic]

Why stop at porn. I say we need more caffiene in decaffienated coffee, more milk in our dairy-free creamer, and more viagra in our bottles of aspirin.

Don't any bigots try to argue with me! :grumble:

[The_Infidel]

And I also believe that the straight porn industry has nowhere to hide on this issue. It's been zapped with something it doesn't know how to handle.
They make fuck films for guys to jerk off to. I doubt that they're sitting in their extravagant homes or driving around in their Porsches quaking in their boots from a few people's "zaps". I think they're handling it just fine.

In order for changes to be made in this size of an industry, the government would most likely have to get involved in some way, which in itself is a concept almost too silly to mention. Do you really think government officials (who, by the way, are voted into and out of office by the American public) are going to risk their positions by showing the slightest bit of interest in the porn industry? Try asking Joe Politician to lobby for more guy-on-guy action in straight porn, and he'll just tell you to go rent a gay porn video, just like everyone here has been telling you.

Art, it's been told to you so many times now. It's supply and demand. There's not enough people out there demanding this type of change in such a cut and dried business. If a guy wants to see two guys getting off on each other, he'll rent a gay porn video. Period. The gay porn part of the business isn't exactly small, but it will always be separated from straight porn. You need to explore the possibility that the "double standard" you keep babbling about is just your problem dealing with human nature.

[Lunatikk]

I want more shemale on shemale action in my straight porn

[Bandoman]

As far as Tristan=art; I rather doubt it because she tends to be far more articulate than art and is able to carry on a conversation that amounts to more than a series of taunts that will soon get him kicked off DVD Talk. :)

I certainly hope not - art is great entertainment.

[The Bus]

The mere fact that people with access to the mainstream media are taking up this issue is going to be very important. And I also believe that the straight porn industry has nowhere to hide on this issue. It's been zapped with something it doesn't know how to handle. The simple fact that straight porn productions won't even allow men to touch each other with their hands is proof positive that it's homophobia.

art, we hope you get better soon. You're showing signs of heatstroke.

Heatstroke occurs when the body fails to regulate its own temperature, and body temperature continues to rise. Symptoms of heatstroke include mental changes (such as confusion, delirium, or unconsciousness).

Luckily, there's help for you.

http://www.cdc.gov/i/logo.gif

13 Tips to Beat the Heat

The CDC offers these tips to help protect your health in extreme heat:
<ul>
<li> Stay indoors and, if at all possible, stay in an air-conditioned place.
<li> Don't leave babies, children, or pets in cars. Not even for a short time. Heat can kill quickly.
<li> Drink more fluids. If your doctor has limited your fluid intake or if you're taking "water pills" (diuretics), check with your doctor first.
<li> Don't drink liquids containing alcohol or lots of sugar. Those drinks may make you lose more body fluid.
<li> Avoid very cold drinks, which can cause stomach cramps.
<li> If you sweat heavily, you may need to replace salt and minerals. A sports beverage may help, but if you're on a low-salt diet, talk with your doctor before drinking sports drinks or taking salt tablets.
<li> When you're at home, wear as little clothing as possible. Choose lightweight, light-colored, loose-fitting clothing.
<li> If you have to be outside, try to limit your outdoor activity to morning and evening hours, and try to rest in shady areas.
<li> If you must go outside, wear sunscreen, a wide-brimmed hat, and eyeglasses.
<li> Pace yourself. Stop all activity if your heart pounds or you gasp for breath in the heat.
<li> Avoid making idiotic, self-defeating arguments that make absolutely no sense; trying to defend your ridiculous nonsensical position will only raise your blood pressure. Your delirium will not make your arguments more viable and may ostracize you further from your community. Also, you're wrong.
<li> Check up on high-risk people, including kids, senior citizens, and people who are ill. Visit at-risk adults at least twice daily. Babies and kids need much more frequent checks.
<li> Provide your pets with plenty of fresh water in a shady area.
</ul>

Hope these help. We all hope for a speedy recovery!

http://www.raspberryfinance.co.uk/images/get%20well%20soon.jpg

[maxfisher]

TheBigDave,

Tristan Taormino is not a "gay activist". Stop putting everybody who brings up this issue in the "gay activist" category. It might suit you to have them all boxed up but I can assure you this issue is resonating beyond the box and into the mainstream.

Do you see the problem with coming to a 'mainstream' website and trying to convince us all of what's resonating within the 'mainstream', even when 99.9% of the people here think you're off your rocker? You might as well be standing on a streetcorner yelling at passerby's that they want to see your cock, even if they don't know it yet. You present such a dilemma, because your spiel is often hilariously entertaining, but at the same time, I think a growing number of us are truly concerned about the state of your mental health.

[Bandoman]

<--- not concerned at all about art's mental health.

[roadbikeguy13]

Didn't someone find that Art was posting the same bull on other websites too?

[bill_n_opus]

art, you're welcome to entertain us ... but you have to realize that you wear your reputation like an albatross.

Uhhh, that's not a good thing by the way, whether you're serious or not.

Oh, for those who are uninitiated with art's postings - please take heed with art:

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6130/cautionttentionwhorespk0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[MovieExchange]

I want more shemale on shemale action in my straight porn


I want more male on female and female on female action in gay male porn. I mean, what type of idiot rents gay porn just to watch two guys getting it on? Sure, you can claim that gay men do so, but we all know that they secretly hate themselves but are scared to admit that they like women.

[art]

The Bus,

You know full well that straight porn contains gay acts of the female-female variety. And you know full well that it bans gay acts of the male-male variety. This is called selective homophobia.

As for taking up the CDC's recommendations regarding my state of mind, I don't need the CDC. I use CS (common sense), unlike you.

[Bandoman]

The Bus,

As for taking up the CDC's recommendations regarding my state of mind, I don't need the CDC. I use CS (common sense), unlike you.

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/9/4/094e7ade606229f45def341792d1167c.jpg

[MovieExchange]

The Bus,

You know full well that straight porn contains gay acts of the female-female variety. And you know full well that it bans gay acts of the male-male variety. This is called selective homophobia.

As for taking up the CDC's recommendations regarding my state of mind, I don't need the CDC. I use CS (common sense), unlike you.

Art, did you eat paint chips as a child?

Of course straight porn contains female on female acts. Know why? Because it's straight porn, which means it's there to appeal to straight men. Straight men, as in men that like women. Thus there's no problem with two women. Since straight men do not enjoy watching male on male action, the producers of said STRAIGHT PORN do not put those types of scenes in there.

It's not selective homophobia, it's not even selective discrimination. It's called knowing what your customer base wants. So come down off the cross, we need the wood.

[MartinBlank]

You know full well that straight porn contains gay acts of the female-female variety. And you know full well that it bans gay acts of the male-male variety. This is called selective homophobia.

Then why does society use the terms "gay men" and "lesbian women"?

[art]

MovieExchange,

Female-female is homosexual. You cannot legitimately call a movie containing female-female action a straight movie. Doesn't make sense. Think about what you're saying. By your warped sense of defining things, an all-girl movie would be called a straight movie. LOL.

[Bandoman]

*sigh* Yes, art, female-female is homosexual, and male-male is homosexual, but all of the straight men that I know don't want to watch the male-male part. I know I don't. If that makes me small-minded, so be it. You're not going to change my preferences by calling it "unfair" or "discriminatory."

[The_Infidel]

MovieExchange,

Female-female is homosexual. You cannot legitimately call a movie containing female-female action a straight movie. Doesn't make sense. Think about what you're saying. By your warped sense of defining things, an all-girl movie would be called a straight movie. LOL.
What part of this oft-repeated statement do you not comprehend:

IT'S CALLED "STRAIGHT PORN" BECAUSE IT'S MARKETED AND SOLD TO STRAIGHT MEN WHO ENJOY TWO WOMEN GETTING IT ON, BUT DO NOT WANT TO SEE TWO MEN GETTING IT ON!!! THE TERM "STRAIGHT PORN" DOES NOT REFER TO ITS CONTENT!!!

[The Bus]

The question is, why don't more women want to see HCMOMP.

(That's hardcore male-on-male porno, folks).

If anything, I believe the onus lies with the ladies.

[Bandoman]

I believe the onus lies with the ladies.

Whoa. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Can you suggest a few titles?

[maxfisher]

MovieExchange,

Female-female is homosexual. You cannot legitimately call a movie containing female-female action a straight movie. Doesn't make sense. Think about what you're saying. By your warped sense of defining things, an all-girl movie would be called a straight movie. LOL.

I have a solution. Let's set some new definitions that avoid this problem. Then you won't have anything to bitch about.

Straight porn - participants may only touch, lick or fuck people of the opposite sex

Gay porn - participants may only touch, lick or fuck people of the same sex

Bi porn - participants may touch, lick or fuck anyone they want, regardless of sex

art porn - men can touch, lick or fuck anyone, while women can only touch, lick or fuck men

Anti-art porn - women can touch, lick or fuck anyone, while men can only touch, lick or fuck women

I'm guessing most of the straight guys will still prefer porn that is now to be referred to as anti-art, but at least the semantics won't drive you crazy. Live and let live, eh?

[MartinBlank]

What part of this oft-repeated statement do you not comprehend:

IT'S CALLED "STRAIGHT PORN" BECAUSE IT'S MARKETED AND SOLD TO STRAIGHT MEN WHO ENJOY TWO WOMEN GETTING IT ON, BUT DO NOT WANT TO SEE TWO MEN GETTING IT ON!!! THE TERM "STRAIGHT PORN" DOES NOT REFER TO ITS CONTENT!!!
:lol:

[art]

The Infidel,

LOL. So under what category would you put all-girl porn? Using your logic, it would have to be called straight porn. LOL.

The problem with your method of defining things is that it's not a definition at all. Rather, it's an instruction. You're instructing that such content be called straight porn, when it clearly isn't.

[wergo]

The Infidel,

LOL. So under what category would you put all-girl porn? Using your logic, it would have to be called straight porn. LOL.

The problem with your method of defining things is that it's not a definition at all. Rather, it's an instruction. You're instructing that such content be called straight porn, when it clearly isn't.

You can't find any all-girl porn in the straight aisle of your friendly local porno store? It would have to be called straight porn? It IS straight porn!

Now, I can't proimise you that the girls in those all-girl porns are actually gay or bi, though. They may well ALL be straight, but just acting. In which case they really should put a warning on the box as to the exact percentage of genuine homosexuality contained therein.

It would be a shame if some straight guy bought it, thinking that he was gonna watch some real lesbian porn, and ended up being cheated. Or, for that matter, if a lesbian bought it, only to discover that the video was intended for a patriarchial male gaze.

Lucky, when I reach for an all-girl porn, I'm usually too distracted by all the naked women to give much of a rat's ass as to what the actual orientation of each of the actors is. It just doesn't seem to matter as much as it really ought.

Does it make it LESS or MORE of a straight porn if the girls are ACTUALLY gay or just pretending? And what percentage of guys watching care one way or the other?

Honestly, why do you think the manufacturers of porn care more about the orientation of the actors than about the orientation of the audience?

[Vandelay_Inds]

What I find peculiar is that art equates homosexuality with progress. That is in reality what moves him.

[pixie1]

:horse: :horse: :horse:

[The_Infidel]

The Infidel,

LOL. So under what category would you put all-girl porn? Using your logic, it would have to be called straight porn. LOL.

The problem with your method of defining things is that it's not a definition at all. Rather, it's an instruction. You're instructing that such content be called straight porn, when it clearly isn't.
In one ear and out the other...huh, art?

[Graftenberg]

http://images.comicbookresources.com/oddball/rifleman.jpg

[art]

LOL, according to some bright sparks, gay girl porn is actually "straight". LOL!!! Talk about warping the English language.....

[art]

Graftenberg,

LOL - that magazine cover is a classic.

[The_Infidel]

LOL, according to some bright sparks, gay girl porn is actually "straight". LOL!!! Talk about warping the English language.....
You just totally get off on trolling for arguments, don't you?

[Bandoman]

You just totally get off on trolling for arguments, don't you?

He just ignores what anyone else says and keeps attacking the straw man. It's amusing. I wonder if he's like that in real life?

[maxfisher]

LOL, according to some bright sparks, gay girl porn is actually "straight". LOL!!! Talk about warping the English language.....

According to you, the brightest spark of us all, porn with a guy licking another guy's balls while he has sex with a woman is 'straight'. You know, since you keep saying you want to see that in 'straight' porn. Crazy world we live in.

[MovieExchange]

He just ignores what anyone else says and keeps attacking the straw man. It's amusing. I wonder if he's like that in real life?

I'm just glad that he's gay, meaning he won't have a child to pass his idiocy down to.

Christ, can you imagine a child raised by Art? That's something that would give Stephen King nightmares...

[boredsilly]

There is porn out there with guys and a girl, where every one fucks everybody. The guys fuck each other and the girls fuck the guys. What <b>art</b> wants already exists...so what the hell? Oh right, the hell is <b>art</b> is probably trolling and having a go at all the readers of this thread.

After a quick search (and taking on for the team as it were): I found two sites in less than 30 seconds that offer what <b>art</b> wants. I won't link because I think that breaks the sites rules, but they were called Drunken-Bi and Bi-Trios. Go have at it <b>art</b>. If you aren't trolling and thats what you really want to see, it exists and is waiting for you. Stop trying to champion male on male action in porn watched mainly by straight men is about the most futile cause a person could pick up. You're wasting your energy.

I like to watch big booty and breasted black women. So I go to the big booty and breasted black section of where I get my porn. That's how the industry works. Everything is compartmentalized.

[Bandoman]

There is porn out there with guys and a girl, where every one fucks everybody. The guys fuck each other and the girls fuck the guys. What <b>art</b> wants already exists...so what the hell? Oh right, the hell is <b>art</b> is probably trolling and having a go at all the readers of this thread.

After a quick search (and taking on for the team as it were): I found two sites in less than 30 seconds that offer what <b>art</b> wants. I won't link because I think that breaks the sites rules, but they were called Drunken-Bi and Bi-Trios. Go have at it <b>art</b>. If you aren't trolling and thats what you really want to see, it exists and is waiting for you. Stop trying to champion male on male action in porn watched mainly by straight men is about the most futile cause a person could pick up. You're wasting your energy.

I like to watch big booty and breasted black women. So I go to the big booty and breasted black section of where I get my porn. That's how the industry works. Everything is compartmentalized.


Don't you get it? He shouldn't have to go to the sexual ghetto to get what he wants! We should ALL have to watch what art wants. And if we don't want to watch it, we're in denial and/or small minded.

[crazyronin]

Being a n00b to an art thread, I have only one question:

Does he really have dictionary facts to support him?

[art]

I'm actually very serious about what I'm saying. Otherwise I would not persist in depleting my stocks of glucose with the issues I've been raising. I mean, the notion of all-girl porn being "straight porn" is ridiculous beyond words. It's as gay as a picnic basket.

My central point is that the straight porn crowd should get rid of the taboo on male-male contact. Even mere touching is banned - goes to show how homophobic they are about any form of male-male interaction whatsoever. This Village Voice article is going a long way towards exposing the industry for what it really is.

[girlnextdoor]

My central point is that the straight porn crowd should get rid of the taboo on male-male contact. Even mere touching is banned - goes to show how homophobic they are about any form of male-male interaction whatsoever. This Village Voice article is going a long way towards exposing the industry for what it really is.

Can a woman (such as myself) be homphobic since she doesn't want to watch any male on male action?

[The_Infidel]

I'm actually very serious blah blah blah blah blah blah blah yada yada yada yada yada yada yada me me me me me me me me penis penis penis penis penis blah blah blah blah blah
Fixed.

[wergo]

I mean, the notion of all-girl porn being "straight porn" is ridiculous beyond words. It's as gay as a picnic basket.

My central point is that the straight porn crowd should get rid of the taboo on male-male contact.

a> Of course it's as gay as a picnic basket. But the POINT is that "lesbian" porn is marketed to straight guys who LIKE to watch girls. Girls with guys. Girls with other girls. Girls by themselves. It's the girls that count; not whether they're gay, straight, bi or asexual. Straight guys barely even notice if there's a guy in the shot; he's just a prop who gets in the way. Which is why the guys in "straight" porn are usually pretty unattractive. (really; Ron frickin' Jeremy?!?) Those girls who get off on gay porn; I'd be willing to bet that a big reason for that is that the guys in gay porn are actually hot. Which is because the audience notices them. The producers pay extra for guys who are attractive because they're actually a selling point for the titles.

b> The ONLY way the (you say "taboo", everyone else says "free market") will be gotten rid of is if more straight women (and, hey, why not? - gay men) start buying straight porn. When more porn is created that appeals to BOTH men and women; then your dreams will come true. But, at the moment, 99% of porn is marketed to men. You're wasting your time arguing your point to people who ALREADY consume porn. Find the people who care about naked guys and get THEM to vote with their wallets.

[art]

wergo,

Give me a break. Ron Jeremy hasn't been a regular in porn for years. He's a has-been. As for the men in straight porn movies, of course they're important. It's all about the cock, don't forget. That's why men like to see men with big cocks, not little ones. Haven't you ever glanced when you're at the urinal?

[XavierMike]

wergo,

Give me a break. Ron Jeremy hasn't been a regular in porn for years. He's a has-been. As for the men in straight porn movies, of course they're important. It's all about the cock, don't forget. That's why men like to see men with big cocks, not little ones. Haven't you ever glanced when you're at the urinal?


Hands down the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. The previous be an explanation of Scientology.

The only reason cocks are in straight porn is so we can watch the women get off on something.

[art]

Xavier Mike,

Oh, puh-lease. Then why was John Holmes so popular with all you straight guys? Why is Lee Stone's big bent banana a selling point for straight porn companies? Why is Shane Diesel's monstrosity at the top of the straight porn sales charts week after week? You must have missed the memo......

[The_Infidel]

Then why was John Holmes so popular with all you straight guys? Why is Lee Stone's big bent banana a selling point for straight porn companies? Why is Shane Diesel's monstrosity at the top of the straight porn sales charts week after week?
[blatant sarcasm]You're right, art. We claim to be jealous of their endowments, and of their track record of having and pleasing so many women...but secretly we want to be the ones underneath their manly forms, to feel their flesh pressed up against us, to feel their throbbing cocks buried deep in our rectums. You got us, art. You know us so well. None of us here are straight. We're all closet homosexuals. We're fighting against your arguments on the outside, but inside we really relate completely with everything you say, and we will do everything we can to help further your efforts. You're our hero.[/blatant sarcasm]

[The Cow]

Then why was John Holmes so popular with all you straight guys?
Truth (yeah, obvious truth), is out.

So why do you being a non-straight guy care about straight porn?

[The Cow]

Then why was John Holmes so popular with all you straight guys?
Truth (yeah, obvious truth), is out. And the answer to you question, is "amazingly, girls watch porn too!".

So why do you being a non-straight guy care about straight porn? And why isn't there more Male-Female action in non-straight porn?

[The Cow]

Then why was John Holmes so popular with all you straight guys?
Truth (yeah, obvious truth), is out. And the answer to your question is.. "amazingly, girls watch porn too!".

So why do you being a non-straight guy care about straight porn? And why isn't there more Male-Female action in non-straight porn?

[MartinBlank]

What's the average page count of an art thread before it dies or gets locked?

[wildcatlh]

What's the average page count of an art thread before it dies or gets locked?

We've got at least another 5 pages to go....

[art]

http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0632,taormino,74080,24.html

The above address will take you to a new article by Tristan Taormino in the current issue of Village Voice. Tristan goes into greater detail using male pornstar Christian as an example. It's a well-written, incisive article.

From the article, here is a paragraph which eloquently encapsulates the hypocrisy of the straight porn crowd:

*****Gender disparities within porn usually find women with the short end of the stick, but there are several double standards that trap men in a corner. Female performers are encouraged to test the boundaries of their sexuality...while their male counterparts are ridiculed for it. Girls get a lot more leeway when it comes to bisexuality and the split between on- and off-camera behavior. The majority of women in the industry do girl/girl scenes; while lots identify as bisexual, plenty consider themselves straight and "gay for pay". Their self-described "real life" identity is never questioned no matter how much pussy they eat. However, when a man does a guy/guy or even a guy/transwoman scene, all bets are off., as evidenced by the flak Christian gets.****

[maxfisher]

http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0632,taormino,74080,24.html

The above address will take you to a new article on this issue in the current issue of Village Voice. Tristan goes into greater detail using male pornstar Christian as an example. It's a well-written, incisive article.

It's really not. The porn star says he's not bi or gay for pay, though he enjoys fucking guys on film for money. So right off the bat, one has to question his understanding of the meaning of words in general.

The author goes on to say, 'Although not deliberate, his statements force other guys to confront their own desires about whether they might like to switch it up.' In other words, he thinks straight guys are repressed and need to open up to fucking other men. Given your history here, I'm not surprised you're ga-ga for the article, but put simply, it ain't gonna happen.

The mentality of trying to 'convert' straight guys is completely pathetic and I'm guessing mostly comes from homosexuals who grew up in repressed households and still feel some lingering, misplaced guilt about their sex life. It's a mindset with the potential to do a lot of harm to the progress of gay rights because rather than striving for acceptance and tolerance of being gay, it tries to force others to be gay as well. There are a lot of people in middle America who have come a long way towards a live-and-let-live philosophy. When those people encounter gays telling them they should happily take a cock in the ass, it will only retard, or even reverse, that progress.

[FunkDaddy J]

The notion of all-girl porn being "straight porn" is ridiculous beyond words.

This has been explained to you ad nauseum, but you're not hearing it: In this particular context, "straight" refers to the audience--not the content.

Audience, not the content.

Audience, not the content.

It's referring to whom the content is being marketed.

To whom the content is being marketed.

"Straight," in this case, has little to do with the content itself, at least as far as our lovely lesbians are concerned.

Us straight guys like women. We like sex with women. We like to watch sex between a man and a woman, because we like to imagine that we're doing what that man is doing to that woman. We like to watch sex between two women, because we agree with both of their points of view. "Straight porn," the way it's marketed, is all about the straight man's love of women, whether that be a man having sex with a woman, or a woman having sex with a woman.

Sex between men has no place in porn marketed to straight men. See, that would be the wrong market.

[art]

Max fisher,

Perhaps you need to accept that men are conditioned to repress their bisexuality but women are encouraged to express theirs. This is a social double standard aided and abetted by the straight porn industry. Don't deny it.

As for being forced to take a cock up the ass, what a load of rot. A kiss and a cuddle will suffice, thanks. Ever tried it?

[art]

Jason Bovberg,

Who are you to say? What gives you the right to instruct people as to what to like? You don't speak for all straight men - never have, never will.

Face it - you're like a bunch of roosters trying to protect your harems. You know you're being challenged like never before. The truth will come down on your pathetic heads like a ton of bricks.

[art]

Jason Bovberg,

Moreover, keep in mind that your love of "lovely lesbians" is actually a fetish. It isn't a sexual orientation. Don't you dare put your fetish before my sexual orientation.

[wildcatlh]

Jason Bovberg,

Who are you to say? What gives you the right to instruct people as to what to like? You don't speak for all straight men - never have, never will.

Face it - you're like a bunch of roosters trying to protect your harems. You know you're being challenged like never before. The truth will come down on your pathetic heads like a ton of bricks.

Now this may be one of the more ironic statements in the history of this forum. You seem to be the one instructing us as to what to like. I was convinced about 4 threads of yours that you were on some weird joke, but now I think you're serious again. Which begs the question of when you'll understand that straight men don't want to see two men together. It's nothing repressed, we're not all secretly bisexual. We just don't want to see it. Doesn't do a thing for us. You're bi or gay... fine. Great. Wonderful. Good for you. You want to see two men together, there's plenty of that kind of porn out there. But straight men don't want to see that, and you haven't quite understood that yet.

[art]

WildcatLH,

Total and utter garbage. I am not telling you what to like. On the contrary, the straight porn industry is doing the telling. It's telling us that even a little bit of male-male can never co-exist with heterosexuality, unlike female-female.

Keep in mind these two important words: double standards. I know you don't like them, but they are perfect in describing the straight porn sleazeballs.

[wildcatlh]

WildcatLH,

Total and utter garbage. I am not telling you what to like. On the contrary, the straight porn industry is doing the telling. It's telling us that even a little bit of male-male can never co-exist with heterosexuality, unlike female-female.

Keep in mind these two important words: double standards. I know you don't like them, but they are perfect in describing the straight porn sleazeballs.

Still wondering why I bother, but...

The porn studios don't tell anybody anything. The market tells the porn studios what type of porn to make. If they could make the most money putting male-male sex in straight porn... guess what they'd do? If they could make the most money portraying sex with amputees, guess what they'd do? If they could make the most money making furry porn.... guess what they'd do?

It's a business, like any other. It exists to make money. Not to make a social statement.

[art]

Max Fisher,

Can I also add that it is fallacious to tie the gay rights movement to the porn industry. The porn industry has worked against the interests of the gay rights movement. It has reduced female homosexuality to a spectator sport for sleazy "straight" guys, and it has segregated out the male-male interaction into a different genre altogether. My theory is that the gay rights movement will be the undoing of the porn industry as it now stands. I couldn't be happier to say the least.

[FunkDaddy J]

Moreover, keep in mind that your love of "lovely lesbians" is actually a fetish. It isn't a sexual orientation. Don't you dare put your fetish before my sexual orientation.

:) You amuse me.

But, you know, now that I think about it, I would argue that when straight men (and yes, I'm speaking for all straight men) watch two girls having sex, we're not even really thinking in terms of "gay" or "lesbian." If anything, we're just thinking how nice it is to watch all that female flesh rolling around and we're imagining being in the middle of it. Even when we watch "lesbians" in straight porn, we're watching from a hetero point of view. We're thinking, "That looks very pleasing. I want to add my flesh to that."

In summary, even the "gay female sex" in straight porn is actually, for all intents and purposes, straight.

So there.

[bwvanh114]

These threads needs to be closed. Enough is enough.

[The_Infidel]

WildcatLH,

Total and utter garbage. I am not telling you what to like. On the contrary, the straight porn industry is doing the telling. It's telling us that even a little bit of male-male can never co-exist with heterosexuality, unlike female-female.

Keep in mind these two important words: double standards. I know you don't like them, but they are perfect in describing the straight porn sleazeballs.
If you're not telling us what to like, why do you continually come in here and preach that we should be accepting of more homosexual action in our straight porn? We're telling you that, as straight men, we don't want to see it. But then, you just accuse us of being in denial and being closet bisexuals.

I'm convinced that there's no way you can be serious about all this, otherwise you would be spouting your rhetoric in a forum where people are accepting of your goofball theories and joining you in your windmill-tilting.

[maxfisher]

Perhaps you need to accept that men are conditioned to repress their bisexuality but women are encouraged to express theirs. This is a social double standard aided and abetted by the straight porn industry. Don't deny it.

You seem to be making the assumption that all men and all women have bisexual tendencies, which is patently absurd. Other than that, I think your 'double standard' bit has been adequately responded to so many times that it's not even worth addressing anymore.

As for being forced to take a cock up the ass, what a load of rot. A kiss and a cuddle will suffice, thanks. Ever tried it?

Oh really?!?!?! All I have to do is make out and cuddle with a guy and then you'll accept me as having an opinion of worth?!?!?! You'll have to excuse me for not jumping at the opportunity. Seriously, I find your attitude towards straight men to be equally distasteful to those held by any other type of bigot.

Total and utter garbage. I am not telling you what to like.

Given your position, you're either telling straight men what they should like, or you're saying they should be forced to watch porn that has things they don't like in it.

Can I also add that it is fallacious to tie the gay rights movement to the porn industry. The porn industry has worked against the interests of the gay rights movement.

I was responding to the article you posted, whose author clearly indicates he is of the opinion that the porn industry should be used to try to open straight guys up to having sex with men.

It has reduced female homosexuality to a spectator sport for sleazy "straight" guys

Ok, so two men fucking on tape = groundbreaking and openminded, while two women fucking on tape = sleazy. It's starting to feel like there's a bit of misogyny underlying your attitudes.

[Johnny Zhivago]

These threads needs to be closed. Enough is enough.

But, but... Where would I get my sig material? :hscratch:

[wergo]

Perhaps you need to accept that men are conditioned to repress their bisexuality but women are encouraged to express theirs. This is a social double standard aided and abetted by the straight porn industry. Don't deny it.

As for being forced to take a cock up the ass, what a load of rot. A kiss and a cuddle will suffice, thanks. Ever tried it?


a> I liked Taormino better back in the day when she was promoting girls fucking guys (and other girls) in the ass as female empowerment and arguing that receptive anal sex has NOTHING to do with orientation. Now she seems to be doing a 180 on that opinion.

b> "aided and abetted" by the porn industry? I'm gonna need to see some research that shows that the porn industry has ANY agenda besides making as much cash as possible. They're not leaders; they're followers. Seems to me that the prejudice against bisexuals comes more from the gay community than the straight one. At least the straight community supplies bisexual girls (pretend or otherwise) for the male gaze, what's the gay industry doing to supply the demand (?) for male-on-female action to their base?

It's not the 1970s anymore; betamax does NOT rule. If there's such a great demand out there that the straight porn industry isn't supplying, why hasn't the internet picked up the slack? I'm not sure if there's any porn on the internet down there in the States, but we have it up here in the North on our computers and I'm not finding one heck of a lot of male bi-porn marketed towards straight guys.

I'm not denying that there's a social double standard. Girls make out with other girls and their boyfriends are turned on and annoyed that they didn't videotape it. Guys make out with other guys and their girlfriends break up with them because they're obviously gay. But that standard is currently in place and the porn industry has shown zero interest in risking their profit margins by trying to play society police or promoting social experimentation by forcing an agenda.

[art]

Isn't it interesting how all you straight guys get nervous when someone says that you might have bisexual tendencies? And yet you're the first to promote the notion that straight women should experiment bisexually. If hypocrisy were a piece of architecture, yours would be the Sears Tower.

BTW, Tristan Taormino is a woman, not a man.

[Lemdog]

Isn't it interesting how all you straight guys get nervous when someone says that you might have bisexual tendencies?


Nervous, No. Tired of you talking about how all guys have bisexual tendencies, Yes.

[The_Infidel]

Isn't it interesting how all you straight guys get nervous when someone says that you might have bisexual tendencies? And yet you're the first to promote the notion that straight women should experiment bisexually. If hypocrisy were a piece of architecture, yours would be the Sears Tower.

BTW, Tristan Taormino is a woman, not a man.

a> I liked Taormino better back in the day when she was promoting...
You just can't anything right, can you, art?

The only thing I think is interesting is that you seem to know everyone here so well that you can all say without reservation that we all have bisexual tendencies. Who the fuck are you to try and tell people you don't even know what their sexual orientation is?

Also, please quote the person or persons who said "straight women should experiment bisexually".

Better not use words like "hypocrisy" that you don't understand. Once you realize what it means, you may feel rather silly for going on like you have.

[art]

You straight guys use sleazy tactics to promote the notion that straight women should experiment bisexually but that straight men shouldn't. One of the ways you do it is through the straight porn industry, one of your "pillars of propagation". I am going to alert the gay community to the fact that your industry works against the interests of gay people.

And who said anything about changing your viewing prefences? Stop trying to portray yourselves as victims - the victim card don't fly here. You people are the perps, not the victims.

[FinkPish]

I am going to alert the gay community to the fact that your industry works against the interests of gay people.

This has to be a joke. rotfl

[Brent L]

Wildcat,

You're making a huge assertion with no basis in fact. Where are the figures to support your argument?

Why don't one of you start a poll asking if straight guys want to see this?

It would only give you an example of just the people here, obviously, but this is where you post this stupidity.

[maxfisher]

Isn't it interesting how all you straight guys get nervous when someone says that you might have bisexual tendencies? And yet you're the first to promote the notion that straight women should experiment bisexually. If hypocrisy were a piece of architecture, yours would be the Sears Tower.

BTW, Tristan Taormino is a woman, not a man.

You've no idea. Since your posts, I've locked myself in my apartment and refuse to leave, for fear I might see a man and want to fuck him. I've set my internet preferences to block all images for the same reason. Right now, I'm curled up in a ball, typing with my right hand with a bottle of whiskey in a death grip in my left. I'm hoping if I stay fall-down drunk for a week or two, I might be able to completely forget what a man looks like. Of course, I've also had to remove all mirrors from my living quarters. You've shattered my world, art, and I don't know what to do.

[pzjgr]

Here's what I don't get about this whole thread....

Coming from a straight male....I like to see lebians in my porn, I don't mind seeing woman getting fucked in every hole, and sucking dick in my porn....I guess psychologically because I would like to think its me....

When watching porn I am watching the females, the male is just there....

I DO NOT want to see some guy blowing another guy....I have no interests in guys, I am interested in females.

If YOU want to see guys doing other guys, buy some gay porn, AND LEAVE MINE ALONE.....

I don't go around saying, gee, I wish gay porn would show more bisexual guys fucking chicks, and ruining your porn......


Oh, and by the way, in my world there is, and never will be any male-male action, so why would I want to see it in porn?

[wergo]

Oh, and by the way, in my world there is, and never will be any male-male action, so why would I want to see it in porn?

Watching stuff you're not aroused by, and forcing yourself to pretend you care about it, is your responsibility and political obligation as a citizen.

Otherwise, when the re-education camps are set in place, you won't get to be a councillor. And they have all the best fiun. Didn't you see 'Meatballs'?

[bill_n_opus]

art, have you taken your meds today?

I'm now convinced that you have a personality disorder/mental illness.

Lack of insight, unable to fathom reasonable arguments, feelings of persecution, unerring need to dominate conversations with self-important views and unrepentant attempts to blanket others with said viewpoints. Inability to comprehend basic social mores ...

For the first little while I thought you were trolling ... but you've maintained a consistency that belies otherwise.

From now on i'll dedicate my further efforts to attempt to illuminate potential methods of treatment for you art, just like your single-minded driven efforts to promote your own agenda.

So, for the first attempt i'll ask you to direct your attention to Dr. Drew from Loveline.

The underlying insight in his show is that people like you (gasp! blanket statement!) are messed up because of some previous significant trauma incurred during their formative years which then leads to an unreasonable "fetish" to replicate the damage as an adult.

Such as pursuing totally inappropriate relationships, actions or deeds. In your case, interacting in discussion forums.

So, were you abused as a child? Bad uncle or family friend? Were you raped or molested? Dysfunctional family? I'm serious, i'm here to help. You ignore my previous quasi-silly comments in the vein of DVDAdult talk humor ... but don't ignore help when it's offered to you in a serious manner.

C'mon art, roll with us. Take the first step to recovery.

[cidmo]

I am a straight male. Or am I? Maybe I secretly wish I was the female in the straight porn scene ... do I really know? Maybe art does!

Anyway, I think that all porn is SEGREGATION!! Remember different drinking fountains for blacks and whites? Well porn is NO BETTER!!

Why do we need all these different SEGREGATIONS of content: big boob, small boob, latina, black, fatties, skinnies, gay, lesbian, asian, anal, dp, teen, etc. ??????????????

This could FUNDAMENTALLY undermine the ENTIRE US and what it stands for!!

In your office, do all the latinas sit in one part of your office, with them then separated by boob size, belly size, etc?

NO! Why? SOCIETY WOULDN'T STAND FOR IT!!

So what's the point? ALL porn -- every single title that's put out -- should have all of the above -- all races, all body types, all boob sizes, MFM, FMF, MM, FF, MMMF, MMFF, transexuals, hermaphrodites, all hair colors -- all in the SAME VIDEO!! ALL OF THEM!!

Anything else would be CLOSE MINDED and SEGREGATED!!

all hail art, our savior!!!!

[Bandoman]

I am going to alert the gay community to the fact that your industry works against the interests of gay people.


rotfl rotfl rotfl

art alert!

rotfl

[indianajdp]

Probably should remain an independent observer, but I have to ask these questions.

Art, I understand the points you make. I don't agree with your logic, but I see your points. Here are my questions for you.

1. What are YOU going to do about this "hypocrisy"? Ranting and arguing with folks on websites won't change a thing. It won't change the situation you dislike, and it sure as hell will not change the minds of forum members in regards to what their preferences are. So, I merely want to know what you are trying to accomplish, what you, personally, are doing to change things in the industry. Honestly, I think anything short of starting your own studio and making the movies you desire is futile.

2. I am not trying to sound condescending here, but I have to ask...do you understand the concept of a Free-Market Economy? The reason I ask is simple...industry that produces a product people want succeeds. That success is not based on people's opinions of the product, it's based on sales. A product that sells, and sells well, is a "success", and it stays on the shelf. One that does not sell...well...do you remember Strawberry Rice Crispies in 1982?

Here's the best analogy I can think of for this point. Coca-Cola is the most successful carbonated beverage in history, and is a brand that is globally known and loved. People love it for its taste, and if they want to taste something different, they purchase something else. But market-share proves over and over again that people prefer the taste of Coke to Pepsi, RC, Shasta, etc. So...what happened when Coke decided to mess with the product and possible appeal to a wider market? It was a disaster and sales plummeted. People know what they wanted in Coca-Cola and they bought it. When it was changed, they reflected their feelings by not buying the product anymore.

Companies that want to succeed (i.e., sell lots of product and make lots of money) provide the products the consumers demand the most. If they don't, they will lose out to other companies providing the product that they are not. These choices are made not because DMs (decision makers) are biased, have an agenda, or want to impose their will on the market. They are made to have the maximum impact on sales and make the most money possible in the marketplace. Period. DMs that make decisions that are emotionally-based are generally doing so against the mandates of their market (which is why they are "emotional" decisions) and will, more-often-than-not, lead to failure.

Putting the action you want to see in a "traditional" adult film is nothing more than tinkering with a formula that results in billions of dollars in sales. There is absolutely no reason for these studios to do it because they already have a successful product. I can honestly say that I doubt a "new coke" approach by a major studio that already sells millions of units will grow their market share. And that is what it's all about...market share and the almighty dollar.

3. If you understand the concept of a Free Market Economy, then how can you expect a company, or an industry, to risk its own investment by making changes to a product its target market desires already? Whether or not it's the right thing to do is irrelevant...this is not as simple as adding vanilla to the flavor of the product. Folks that see a hole in the market not being filled generally bring their own product to market at their own expense (and risk) to see if they can capitalize on that void in the market. Are you prepared to do that? If not, how can you expect an already established company to risk their own dollars?

[art]

The straight porn industry does not operate on the basis of a free market. It operates on the basis of tailoring its product to a perception. Its modus operandum is shaped by one of the worst mental illnesses known to man - i.e. a phobia of the male-male interaction.

As for me trying to tell you what to watch, how many times do I have to tell you that that's not what I'm on about? Have you got wax in your ears? I'm simply saying that the taboo on male-male contact should be removed from straight porn. Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that all straight porn movies are suddenly going to have some male-male contact in them. It simply means that some will and some won't. You, the viewer, will ultimately decide whether to watch it or not. I'm not going to hold your head and say "watch...or else".

[NCMojo]

The straight porn industry does not operate on the basis of a free market. It operates on the basis of tailoring its product to a perception. Its modus operandum is shaped by one of the worst mental illnesses known to man - i.e. a phobia of the male-male interaction.
rotfl :lol: rotfl :lol: rotfl

[deadlax]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! There is no taboo against it. It just doesn't sell well to straight men, so porn companies don't produce it.

[The_Infidel]

Its modus operandum is shaped by one of the worst mental illnesses known to man - i.e. a phobia of the male-male interaction.
I don't know if you've ever said before, but have you done some kind of extensive study that proves that a majority of men are keeping secret bisexual or homosexual tendencies buried deep inside them? Why can't you just accept the fact that if a man says he's straight, and has no urge to watch two men have sex, that that's all it is, and nothing more? No phobias, nothing locked away inside...just a man stating truthfully his sexual orientation.

So, on behalf of everyone (if I may be so bold), the question is once again posed to you:

Other than the fact that the scenes you're hoping to see included just aren't currently there, where is your proof that some kind of phobia exists that results in male-male action being left out of straight porn?

Don't change the subject...don't go off on another tangent...answer that specific question, please.

[indianajdp]

The straight porn industry does not operate on the basis of a free market. It operates on the basis of tailoring its product to a perception.

You do realize that if they don't this is probably the only industry in the history of Capitalism that can thumb its nose at the checks and balances of a Free Market Economy. Last time I checked, any business that made a product that did not sell usually lost money and went under. Those that sold well kept producing what was selling well...that's the basis of a free market economy.

As for me trying to tell you what to watch, how many times do I have to tell you that that's not what I'm on about? Have you got wax in your ears? .... You, the viewer, will ultimately decide whether to watch it or not. I'm not going to hold your head and say "watch...or else".

Nowhere did I say in my post that you were trying to tell us what to watch. I merely asked how you could expect a studio to tinker with a successful formula at its own risk. I also asked what you were trying to accomplish and if you were prepared to risk your own dollars instead to bring a product to market that you think should be there.

[Graftenberg]

Art's a hetrophobe. -ohbfrank-

[art]

indianajdp,

Successful formula? When straight porn movies sell a million copies, then you can call it a successful formula. The mere fact that most selll about five to ten thousand copies tells you it isn't a successful formula.

[FinkPish]

indianajdp,

Successful formula? When straight porn movies sell a million copies, then you can call it a successful formula. The mere fact that most selll about five to ten thousand copies tells you it isn't a successful formula.
So now you are arguing that the straight porn industry isn't a successful one? Hasn't that been your argument this whole time, and the reason why you want to see things change; because it is such a large and powerful industry? You have no idea what you are even saying anymore, do you?

[indianajdp]

indianajdp,

Successful formula? When straight porn movies sell a million copies, then you can call it a successful formula. The mere fact that most selll about five to ten thousand copies tells you it isn't a successful formula.

If 5-10K units means the studio makes a healthy profit, then yes it is a successful formula.

I don't have the particular numbers on what constitutes normal sell-thru for a "successful" DVD release, so perhaps HoustonDon can shed some light on that. All I can say is no adult film will ever approach units sold like a mainstream release or even a Disney release. The difference is, those films cost tens of millions of dollars to make and market, and they NEED to sell 500,000+ units to approach a profit. I'm sure you'll agree that adult film budgets are a minute fraction of that, thus 5-10K units could certainly be enough to help a studio realize a healthy profit.

The other factor undoubtedly keeping sales a bit lower is the prevelance of material online for people to download.

[wildcatlh]

Art's a hetrophobe. -ohbfrank-

Nah. Art is probably a bisexual man who doesn't like himself much. Came up in a religious upbringing or another upbringing where homosexuals weren't looked upon too kindly. And now that he's found himself attracted to other men, he's disgusted with himself. So his self-defense mechanism is to say that ALL men have those feelings, and that he's one of the few willing to admit it. That way, it's much easier to accept.

[NCMojo]

I dunno, guys. I think art's got a point. I mean, yeah, I don't want a cock up my ass... but I wish more of my heterosexual friends liked to cuddle.

:sad:

OK, OK, just kidding. Since I'm completely straight, obviously I would like a cock up my ass.

[art]

Two points:

a) The porn industry is sustained by the fact that a relatively small number of people make purchases over and over. In no way is this small number of people indicative of society as a whole.

b) The straight porn industry is powerful in the sense that it has been allowed to get away with its lies for so long. Being the only industry that portrays real sex between men and women, it has had a privileged position in disseminating whatever it wishes to disseminate, including the notion that only female homosexuality is compatible with heterosexuality. This position is no longer tenable. As they say in the vernacular, the party's over.

[Graftenberg]

OK, OK, just kidding. Since I'm completely straight, obviously I would like a cock up my ass.


I'll take Cock in the Ass for 500, Alex.

[pixie1]

you guys ever consider the thought that maybe we're dealing with an attention hog here, seriously-art pipes up, blurts the same narrowminded crap all the time, and the entire board continues the same endless debate with no one but him...

[The_Infidel]

I agree. I think the best thing that can be done to shut art up is to just not post in his idiotic threads anymore. It's the basic "ignore him and he'll go away" strategy.

[Bandoman]

That would be the smart approach, but it wouldn't be much fun. These threads are priceless.

[Bushdog]

I'll take Cock in the Ass for 500, Alex.I would require 4 or more 0's at the end of that to even consider that.

[Adiras]

you guys ever consider the thought that maybe we're dealing with an attention hog here, seriously-art pipes up, blurts the same narrowminded crap all the time, and the entire board continues the same endless debate with no one but him...

QFT

[pixie1]

QFT



you know what's pathetic, i had to look that up in the fucking urban dictionary... :suicide:

[zekeburger1979]

Reading this thread reminds me of an exchange on Sports Night:

Casey McCall: It's a vicious circle.
Dan Rydell: Yep. Just keeps going around and around.
Casey McCall: Never stops.
Dan Rydell: That's what makes it vicious.
Casey McCall: And a circle.

[cidmo]

To cock or not to cock, that is the question

[wewantflair]

I've only seen the word "frolic" once in this thread....very, very disappointing.

[Giantrobo]

art, how come we hardly see you in the T-girl thread?

[Rockmjd23]

art, how come we hardly see you in the T-girl thread?
Why should he be confined to the sexual ghetto?

[Graftenberg]

You just had to bump this thread back up.

[Bandoman]

You just had to bump this thread back up.

Look who's talking.

PORN INDUSTRY TAKE NOTICE: we are aware of your double standards, and your homophobic agenda will not stand!

[Giantrobo]

Why should he be confined to the sexual ghetto?

Sexual ghetto?

:grunt: WTF?

[Thanos6]

*tiptoes into the thread* Anyone mind if someone who agrees with SOME of art's viewpoints tries to argue them from a less, shall we say, bizarre POV?

I'm a bisexual man myself. That said: No, I don't think all/most guys are bi and repressing it. Some? Yes. Maybe even many. But by no means most like art seems to think.

I also do wish there was more good M-M-F porn; the few there is do indeed, like he says, seem to view the women as afterthoughts. Just once I'd like to see a MMFF foursome where everyone fucks everyone and the camera gives them all equal attention. I'd pay good money for that.

You guys are, of course, right about the whole free market argument.

But I'm a socialist, so in my would-be worldview that doesn't matter. ;)

If I had the money I'd certainly start my own film studio catering to bisexuals/"bi-friendlies" but I just got out of college. I can barely afford to BUY an adult tape, let alone make one. :) So I'm limited to telling the companies what I like and to make more of it. But maybe if I get rich one day...

As for where does change come from, the top or the bottom, personally I think you have to apply pressure from both ends; get it in the culture AND get it in people's minds. That's why I was so disappointed when ALEXANDER cut out the male-male love scene, because I'd thought Oliver Stone was the kind of guy who wouldn't let the studio touch his movies.

Yes, I do think there is a bisexual double standard that permeates the whole of American society ("bi girls = natural and hot", "bi guys = unnatural and really, they're gay and pretending"). I'm trying to change that in all the ways I know how (letters, petitions, including realistic bi guys in my works of fiction) but unless there's some kind of worldwide divine revelation viz. Saul/Paul, I doubt it will happen until my grandchildren come along, by which time we may finally have made progress.

So, um, hope I made my points without sounding insane. :) Thanks!

[Lemdog]

AHHHHH and I thought this thread had died ...

[Bandoman]

Thanos6, you make your point well and I have no problem with your argument. You want more male bisexual movies, but you're not insisting that (1) every film include this; or (2) everyone wants to see it but is repressing their desires.

[Buford T Pusser]

And all this time I just thought Bando was so against art's point of view because he was denying his true man-on-man desires. :confused:

[Bandoman]

And all this time I just thought Bando was so against art's point of view because he was denying his true man-on-man desires. :confused:


Shhhhhhhhhh!

Lookin' good today, Buford. :eyebrow:

[Nick Danger]

You guys are, of course, right about the whole free market argument.

But I'm a socialist, so in my would-be worldview that doesn't matter. ;)

Do tell. How would pornography be distributed in a socialist world? Would there be a five-year plan to increase production?

[Buford T Pusser]

Shhhhhhhhhh!

Lookin' good today, Buford. :eyebrow:


Awww thanks but I'm not as buff as you yet.

[art]

Thanos,

You've fallen for the rules and regulations that straight male sleazeballs have set for you. And that is that anything with a male-male interaction in it must be segregated into either the bisexual or gay category, unlike the female-female interacton. Don't you see that this segregation is part and parcel of their system of control over you? They are controlling it thus in order to keep their view of normalcy - and their view alone - in a state of primacy.

You have to realize one important thing about straight guys, and that is that they operate by a system of instructions. When they say that porn with female-female is "straight", what they really mean to say is "we've decided that it's straight". I stress the words "we've decided". It's how these ultimate sleazeballs ultimately operate.

If I had my way, I would castrate the lot of them.

[bwvanh114]

When they say that porn with female-female is "straight", what they really mean to say is "we've decided that it's straight". I stress the words "we've decided".So?

[Giantrobo]

Thanos,

You've fallen for the rules and regulations that straight male sleazeballs have set for you.


HETEROPHOBE!!!!!! :grunt:

[pzjgr]

Thanos,

You've fallen for the rules and regulations that straight male sleazeballs have set for you. And that is that anything with a male-male interaction in it must be segregated into either the bisexual or gay category, unlike the female-female interacton. Don't you see that this segregation is part and parcel of their system of control over you? They are controlling it thus in order to keep their view of normalcy - and their view alone - in a state of primacy.

You have to realize one important thing about straight guys, and that is that they operate by a system of instructions. When they say that porn with female-female is "straight", what they really mean to say is "we've decided that it's straight". I stress the words "we've decided". It's how these ultimate sleazeballs ultimately operate.

If I had my way, I would castrate the lot of them.

You just don't seem to get it....99% OF HETERO GUYS HAVE NO INTEREST IN SEEING MALE ON MALE ACTION!!!!!

PERIOD.

End of story. They didn't decide, Hetero males did...I never, ever want to see any male male interaction, I have no interest in it. So I am more than happy with how the "straight male sleazeballs" make porn.

Really, honestly, it sounds like you may have problems with your bisexuality/homosexuality, and are trying to rationalize it with your bizarre notion that straight guys want to really see more (or any) homo stuff going down....sorry, we don't.

Enjoy your porn, leave mine out of it....

[Bandoman]

If I had my way, I would castrate the lot of them.

Nice. We just want our porn without seeing two guys going at it. You want to castrate us for our preference. Yet somehow we're the intolerant ones. :rolleyes:

[Mad Dawg]

Nice. We just want our porn without seeing two guys going at it. You want to castrate us for our preference. Yet somehow we're the intolerant ones. :rolleyes:

No shit. Our junk should be safe though, since "straight" males don't exist in artie's world.

[art]

I am not saying that straight guys shouldn't exist. I am saying that their instructions, their rules, their regulations....these all need to be challenged and exposed, especially when they're hypocritical about things. I see the porn mentality as an extension of "male heterosexual privilege", arrogance and all.

[bwvanh114]

I see the porn mentality as an extension of "male heterosexual privilege", arrogance and all.So?

[XavierMike]

Please don't encourage him...

[JimRochester]

Porn is made for the masses. Guys 18 - 35 are the biggest purchasers of porn. As a whole they would much rather see 2 girls getting it on than 2 guys. Being visual, 2 girls is twice the fun, plus we can imagine ourselves being there with 2 women and not having to buy either one dinner.

2 guys = no sale

[Buford T Pusser]

Porn is made for the masses. Guys 18 - 35 are the biggest purchasers of porn. As a whole they would much rather see 2 girls getting it on than 2 guys. Being visual, 2 girls is twice the fun, plus we can imagine ourselves being there with 2 women and not having to buy either one dinner.

2 guys = no sale


Too weird. I just responded to your post in the Lohan thread w/this:

No beard=no sale!


That was before I saw this thread.

We got the internet speak down.

[art]

JIm Rochester,

Masses? What masses? Most straight porn movies sell less than 10,000 units in the USA. Tiny, tiny number. There are no masses. And you know why? Because people can see that the straight porn biz is about sleaze and is homophobic towards men.

[zekeburger1979]

JIm Rochester,

Masses? What masses? Most straight porn movies sell less than 10,000 units in the USA. Tiny, tiny number. There are no masses. And you know why? Because people can see that the straight porn biz is about sleaze and is homophobic towards men.

You've got the sales numbers right, it's your reasoning as to why that is completely wrong. It's a tiny number because the industry itself is small compared to mainstream movies.

http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html

The article is 5 years old, but I think it's stil relevant.

The straight-porn biz is all about maximizing the amount of money they can make, which in this case is their main demographic of 18-35 year old men who want to see male-female action because they want to pretend that they are the guy nailing the girl and female-female action because they like to see two beautiful women have sex with each other.

There isn't any male-male action in straight porn because straight guys don't want to see that. It's not a repression of bi-sexual or homosexual tendencies like you're claiming; it's the way that we're wired. Since there are no women in male-male action, there's nothing in it for us.

It's what we like to see. We know we don't want male-male action in our porn, so the straight-porn biz doesn't bother trying to foist it upon usbecause they know we won't watch it.

[The_Infidel]

They may only sell 10,000 copies of a movie, but they release 10,000 movies per week (seemingly). They're not a multi-billion-dollar business for nothing. They're filling a demand, which means they're supplying what people are asking for...but art doesn't seem to want to grasp that.

[zekeburger1979]

They may only sell 10,000 copies of a movie, but they release 10,000 movies per week (seemingly). They're not a multi-billion-dollar business for nothing. They're filling a demand, which means they're supplying what people are asking for...but art doesn't seem to want to grasp that.

From the Forbes article:

IVD, based in Hightstown, N.J., the nation's largest distributor, said that there are as many as 13,000 video releases per year. (There are many niche markets--boy-boy, fat people, transvestites, freak shows--which add to the total, according to an IVD spokesman.)

The information is 5 years old, so who knows what the numbers are now, but I'm guessing nowhere near 10,000 a week. I agree with the rest of your statement.

[The_Infidel]

I thought the fact that I was greatly exaggerating would have been clear, especially with the inclusion of the word "seemingly".

[bwvanh114]

people can see that the straight porn biz is about sleaze and is homophobic towards men.So?

[Bandoman]

Waitaminute. The porn industry is sleazy??????? :eek:

[art]

The straight porn biz relies on a relatively small group of people purchasing many different titles over and over. Let me repeat - there are no masses purchasing straight porn.

As for those who say that men don't want to see male-male action, that's beside the point. I am simply pointing to the sleazy, selective homophobia that exists at the top of the industry. They won't even put one second of male-male touching in a straight porn movie. Not one lousy second. That just proves that the industry is far-right conservative when it comes to the male-male interaction.

[FinkPish]

The straight porn biz relies on a relatively small group of people purchasing many different titles over and over. Let me repeat - there are no masses purchasing straight porn.
Where does this information come from?

As for those who say that men don't want to see male-male action, that's beside the point. I am simply pointing to the sleazy, selective homophobia that exists at the top of the industry. They won't even put one second of male-male touching in a straight porn movie. Not one lousy second. That just proves they're a bunch of retards.
art = Monomania? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomania)

[bwvanh114]

That just proves that the industry is far-right conservative when it comes to the male-male interaction.So?

[abrg923]

The straight porn biz relies on a relatively small group of people purchasing many different titles over and over. Let me repeat - there are no masses purchasing straight porn.

As for those who say that men don't want to see male-male action, that's beside the point. I am simply pointing to the sleazy, selective homophobia that exists at the top of the industry. They won't even put one second of male-male touching in a straight porn movie. Not one lousy second. That just proves that the industry is far-right conservative when it comes to the male-male interaction.

No, it proves that the majority of buyers don't want to see it.

Every single argument you've made has more holes than swiss cheese.

[zekeburger1979]

I thought the fact that I was greatly exaggerating would have been clear, especially with the inclusion of the word "seemingly".

Doh! Major brainfart there. :D

[Bandoman]

As for those who say that men don't want to see male-male action, that's beside the point.

It's not beside the point, it's precisely the point. Your refusal to acknowledge this is the key to your misguided point of view.

[art]

It is beside the point because, under my proposal, no-one is being forced to buy something they don't want to watch. I am simply arguing against the ban exercised by those wh