XCritic Adult Review: Naked And Famous

[Eon McKai]

I read Don Houston's DVD review of Naked And Famous at http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=22063 and...

I'm spooked buy this review... this movie is amazing

[Houstondon]

"I read Don Houston's DVD review of Naked And Famous at http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=22063 and...

I'm spooked buy this review... this movie is amazing"

Eon, I suppose it's fair to point out that however "spooked" you are by the review, Jack's works make yours look pretty good by comparison. Is there something about the movie that you actually liked other than that or is your message a sort of comraderie for a fellow "alt-porn" (cough) maker? If I were the cynical sort, I'd say you meant it was "amazing" in how some people bought the movie and pretended to like it (but I still say that the emperor has no clothes...). ;)

Thanks for reading the review.

[Eon McKai]

for me I like the mood of the senens...

call me a sick freek but... some times I like some weard tention in a sex scene... some drama... perahps someone is doing something thay don't want to be doing... this is how life is...

When normal porn is not hot aneymore... Some turn to crazy ass gonzo shit... I see what pepole like JTZ are doing as another option to that...

like if you look at the work of someon like Richard Kern (the photographer). This guy has an advansed vew on butey is. Now I think his photos are hot and some times sad at the same times... There complacated and verry mental and emothonal... I think it's bold and risky to make porn this way...

I meen you no disrespect but I felt like I should defend this moive becuse when i droped it in my DVD player I was intimadated I thought it was so good.

I wish my wrighing stills were as good as yours so I could revew moives on here but my skills lay else where. So I will stick to what I'm doing...

But if aney of you are felling like an edventure I whould highly recomend this movie.

I'm suprized that you thought the editing was sloppy... JTZ spends more time editng moives than aneyone I know...

Thanks for letting me defend this moive... It's somthing amazing... that was maid with alot of hart... and thought... and to me it's one of the hottist things out there right now...

agen I might jsut be a sick fuck... but... whats a perverson????

[Scott_Lecter]

"Eon, I suppose it's fair to point out that however "spooked" you are by the review, Jack's works make yours look pretty good by comparison. Is there something about the movie that you actually liked other than that or is your message a sort of comraderie for a fellow "alt-porn" (cough) maker? If I were the cynical sort, I'd say you meant it was "amazing" in how some people bought the movie and pretended to like it (but I still say that the emperor has no clothes...)"I have to agree with Eon on this one... I watched Naked & Famous a few weeks ago and loved it. Not your same old, same old. It's directors like Eon and Jack that are bringing something original to the often-stale porno landscape.

"When normal porn is not hot aneymore... Some turn to crazy ass gonzo shit... I see what pepole like JTZ are doing as another option to that..."...And I couldn't agree with this more. For someone, like me, whose job it is to basically watch porno all day, it all gets stale very, very quickly. As does that "crazy ass gonzo shit" that some people turn to. Directors like Eon, Jack, and Joanna Angel are the people that are actually making porno fun again, and even suprising at times.

[XCritic Editor]

I've got to jump on the alt-porn train here. I have to say I'm quite a fan. Sure this style of porn isn't for everyone, but it does speak to a new breed of porn fan, and I'm one of them.

[Houstondon]

Eon, I always welcome your comments, even when we might disagree (remember who it was that defended you previously...). It's not disrespectful to disagree and you needn't apologize for liking the movie so much; I've just been unable to find anyone able to reasonably defend the marketing genre (including yourself) in the past.

Remember that I was the reviewer who gave you a couple of very high scores in the recent past too:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=20478
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=19293

"I'm suprized that you thought the editing was sloppy... JTZ spends more time editng moives than aneyone I know..."

Maybe that's part of the problem with his movie. Keep in mind that more time doesn't necessarily mean he's doing it correctly. Tastes in porn are the most private of matters. Some need donkey punch material to get off, others need BDSM, still others need fisting, and some need pissing or scat to get off to so why should you be any different in needing something outside the mainstream of porn?

Some people review porn with a more critical eye than others. This doesn't make their opinions any more correct than anyone else's nor should anyone rely solely on marketing hype to pick their porn. I wait patiently for Scott's review on Naked and Famous since perhaps he'll be able to show me what it had that he enjoyed so much when he watched it. Other titles by Pulse have been full of extras, ran twice as long, and had people enjoying sex so if NAF has some identifiable spark of anything worth watching, I'd like to see it bear the scrutiny of his experience myself.

Scott: "I have to agree with Eon on this one... I watched Naked & Famous a few weeks ago and loved it. Not your same old, same old. It's directors like Eon and Jack that are bringing something original to the often-stale porno landscape."

Hmmm, are you agreeing that the review was spooky for you or that you thought the movie was amazing? Since you quoted my passage and not his, I'm left unsure of which way you're leaning. :)

Being original and being good are not always the same thing. This is why I asked the questions. Admittedly, guys "whose job it is to basically watch porno all day" are people I can identify with but are you saying you liked it simply as something different or as something objectively good? The nuances are not lost on me but absent that review of yours, I might never know.

G!: "I've got to jump on the alt-porn train here. I have to say I'm quite a fan. Sure this style of porn isn't for everyone, but it does speak to a new breed of porn fan, and I'm one of them."

As discussed via email, I'm curious as to what it says to you or why you like it. I could explain what I like about almost every title I review or watch in far more comprehensive terms than my current reviews do (enough to bury Das' level of scrutiny on the mainstream titles he tackles so adeptly) but I've never come across anyone who can rationalize the handful of titles that have been labeled as "alt-porn". Your opinions are as valid as anyone elses are but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask the question.

[XCritic Editor]

To answer your question of why I'm a fan of "alt-porn"...

I think for the most part our tastes in porn aren't all that far off. I happened to get an extra copy of the new Jules Jordan flicks and was blown away. I'm also a fan of much of DP's stuff and when I sit down to watch a porn 9 times out of 10 I'm watching either Red Light District, Platinum X, Zero Tolerance or Digital Playground.

The truth though, for me at least is that much of that porn runs together. Aside from some of the technical differences, I'd be hard pressed to be able to tell them apart in a blind view test...

So why would a gonzo guy dig "Alt-Porn"? The truth is, that for the most part I DESPISE features. Hate them. Hate hate hate hate them. But I've found that aversion doesn't hold true to films like Neu Wave Hookers. To me there's enough interesting stuff going on in these films aside from the sex that I'm actually finding myself WATCHING them. Sure, for stroke value they aren't pound for pound the contender that a good DP film is. But, again they've caught my attention, and for the first time in a long time with porn, I'm interested in actually watching them (not just ffwding along).

I also think this sassy, wry and often sarcastic form of porn is absolutely they type of film a 20something, Gen Y'er would dig. This is the guy (or gal) who is surfing through myspace listening to itunes while Iming his friends. I know that the MTV style of porn has been around for a long long long time. But I do think this new crop of films is different and is speaking to a demographic which hasn't been singled out.

[Scott_Lecter]

Scott: Hmmm, are you agreeing that the review was spooky for you or that you thought the movie was amazing? Since you quoted my passage and not his, I'm left unsure of which way you're leaning. :)

Being original and being good are not always the same thing. This is why I asked the questions. Admittedly, guys "whose job it is to basically watch porno all day" are people I can identify with but are you saying you liked it simply as something different or as something objectively good? The nuances are not lost on me but absent that review of yours, I might never know.I was agreeing with Eon that I think the flick is good. I completely agree that "different" doesn't automatically equate to "good." I found Naked and Famous (and find alt-porn as a whole) "objectively good." That's not to say that every alt-porn title is good - of course they're not all good...just like not all features are good, or all gonzo flicks are good - but the majority of alt-porn that I've seen (and chances are good that I've seen most of them) has an original flavor that speaks to me as someone who is simply tired of the barrage of 4HR comps (and the like) and stale features that show the same old actors/actresses going through the same old motions time and time again.

Once you get past the fuck-factor of porn (the hot chicks, the anatomy of it, the in-and-out), you look for something that will catch your eye. Something that excites the senses (as well as the nether regions) and, at least for me, alt-porn so far has done that. It's refreshing to see people like Eon and JTZ take chances in porno. Too many directors are doing the same thing over and over again because it sells. In that respect, what I enjoy about alt-porn, Eon, JTZ, Joanna Angel, Tommy Pistol, etc is that they are putting themselves out there and trying to make something that they know might not be immediatley financially viable (because there are tons of fans that refuse to try something new), and succeeding by making fuck flicks that are both "objectively good" and "different." :)

[Scott_Lecter]

The truth though, for me at least is that much of that porn runs together. Aside from some of the technical differences, I'd be hard pressed to be able to tell them apart in a blind view test...

I also think this sassy, wry and often sarcastic form of porn is absolutely they type of film a 20something, Gen Y'er would dig. This is the guy (or gal) who is surfing through myspace listening to itunes while Iming his friends. I know that the MTV style of porn has been around for a long long long time. But I do think this new crop of films is different and is speaking to a demographic which hasn't been singled out.Amen, brotha...I couldn't agree more...

[Houstondon]

G!: "To me there's enough interesting stuff going on in these films aside from the sex that I'm actually finding myself WATCHING them. Sure, for stroke value they aren't pound for pound the contender that a good DP film is. But, again they've caught my attention, and for the first time in a long time with porn, I'm interested in actually watching them (not just ffwding along)."

I like well done features (our main difference of opinion) although they are admittedly rare these days (the cost:benefit ratio isn't high enough for most companies to spend the resources to do them correctly). The main body of alt-porn is handled in vignette style which is the most generic of porn (even more so than true gonzo scenes). For me, I like the stroke value and that can take place in numerous ways, such as the tease factor (this week's spotlight pick or Brazilian Ass Fetish coming to mind). My take on the "wry and often sarcastic form" so much of alt-porn takes is simply that it is designed from the beginning to be anti-erotic. It can be visually interesting but if I get bored with attractive ladies having active and enthusiastic sex, I generally take a break from porn rather than seek out the kind of "experience porn" that currently gets labeled "alt-porn" (I'm not disagreeing with you, just getting a handle on where you're coming from).

Scott: "Once you get past the fuck-factor of porn (the hot chicks, the anatomy of it, the in-and-out), you look for something that will catch your eye. Something that excites the senses (as well as the nether regions) and, at least for me, alt-porn so far has done that. It's refreshing to see people like Eon and JTZ take chances in porno. Too many directors are doing the same thing over and over again because it sells. In that respect, what I enjoy about alt-porn, Eon, JTZ, Joanna Angel, Tommy Pistol, etc is that they are putting themselves out there and trying to make something that they know might not be immediatley financially viable (because there are tons of fans that refuse to try something new), and succeeding by making fuck flicks that are both "objectively good" and "different." Too many directors are doing the same thing over and over again because it sells."

25 years later, I'm still waiting for the part where I "get past" the "the hot chicks, the anatomy of it, the in-and-out". :shrug:
My point was that it seemed like both of you were into the mental equivalent of of the term used in BDSM called a "sensation slut" (you even mention the part about "excites your senses"). They are people that like the physical sensations that extreme forms of sex give them (like being caned, spanked, or otherwise abused) due to boredom with vanilla sex. While I accept that porn (for men at least) is primarily about the visual APPEAL of scantily clad or nude women, your quest for something "different" has me under the impression that it's more about the shock factor than anything else. That the more mainstream porn "sells" is indicative of it's inherent value to the population (capitalism at its finest). Also, it's not that "tons of fans refuse to try something new" as I see it; they refuse to watch something they are pretty sure they won't like. Many fans (and I'm a fan, albeit a different case given my voracious reviewing habits) buy movies based on the ladies in them, the directors they "know" will show what they want to see, pick up a specialty title (anal, breasts, tranny or what have you), or even show a form of brand loyalty (if Red Light, Zero Tolerance, or Wicked Pictures have worked for them in the past, they tend to stick with the same material).

In general though, none of you answered the more basic question, relying on the perceived newness of the sub-genre or difference observed compared to other porn instead. Is it the choppy editing, the often substandard lighting, the music (which, in fairness, can be quite good for those who are sick of the generic porn music too often employed), the women (typically heavily tattooed and/or pierced), the make up (used to de-glamorize the ladies)?

I'm not suggesting any of your opinions aren't valid, just trying to narrow down the factors that appeal outside of the far too broad "it's different". By figuring that out, I may be able to more accurately address such titles in the future (anyone that reads my reviews, knows I spend a fair amount of time trying to break down the basic factors that work, and don't work, in the titles I review critically). The discussion is healthy and there really aren't many titles labeled this way to date but when the audio commentary tracks (Eon and his friends make some exceptionally insightful remarks that actually support my conclusions on some of his commentaries) are more interesting and entertaining than watching naked women having various forms of sex, something's out of wack (maybe it's just me though). ;)

[Scott_Lecter]

Also, it's not that "tons of fans refuse to try something new" as I see it; they refuse to watch something they are pretty sure they won't like.I think you're point here is valid, but unfortunate. If I refused to watch something I was pretty sure I wouldn't like, I can't even begin to tell you how many mainstream films I would never have discovered that I now absolutely love.

As far as what works/what doesn't...I agree that it's a healthy discussion to have. I'll email you more specifically when I get home from the day job. ;)

[Eon McKai]

If I were the cynical sort, I'd say you meant it was "amazing" in how some people bought the movie and pretended to like it (but I still say that the emperor has no clothes...). ;)



honislty this is all I have issue with...

I jsut want you to undersand that I would not be stiing in an office at Vivid right now if poeople jsut pretended to like this stuff...

We have an audanace.

man there is alot to read here... let me go back and look at all this

[Nick Danger]

Can someone explain to me what alt-porn is? I've never heard of it.

[Eon McKai]

alt-porn is a contemporary alternative to the mainstream of adult films.


it started on websghts like

http://suicidegirls.com

[Houstondon]

Nick: "Can someone explain to me what alt-porn is? I've never heard of it."

This is exactly what I'm asking the others in the thread although I'm also asking for what makes it so appealing to them. Here are some bits I've read in the past:

Los Angles Times interview with Eon: "And what exactly is he shooting? McKai's postmodern porn stars mock traditionally clunky porn dialogue, sometimes simply holding scripts and reading from them. He includes flubbed takes and casts his friends as clothed extras. "I try to have a little Warhol approach," McKai explains. "Here's the people and here's the script, and I'm just going to let this play out. I'm going to keep the cameras rolling until everyone becomes really uncomfortable, and those are the moments I'm going to cut in."

and their assessment: "Of course, it had to happen. Be it clothes, music, television or disposable razors (dig the new Schick Quattro ads in Rolling Stone—four blades of shaving power!), when you slap "alt" on a product, it sells." (emphasis mine)

From the Urban Dictionary: "Altporn - alternative pornography. a medium (mainly online but also occassionally in print) consisting of an alternative to mainstream pornography, websites that often offer communities where members can communicate with models, breaking down barriers and exploitation by featuring models who are real people. Often feature men and women of subculture and considered woman friendly and sex-positive."

There are a lot of definitions of the term but almost all of them seem geared to the mainstream takeover (some would say co-opting) of the sub-genre to cash in. Keep in mind that the porn industry is as capitalistic as it gets; if they think it'll make them money, they'll provide anything the public will pay for. As far as mainstream companies releasing such titles, there aren't many (cries of "sell out" are frequent, suggesting those who work within the confines of larger Chatsworth based porn companies can't possibly be true to the ideal, though I find that unfair to those who try).

Anyone suggesting a fusion of punk rock and porn need only look to the late 1970's and early 1980's for a score of titles in that vein, with Cafe Flesh the most frequently referred to example (sporting everything except the "goth" or "Emo" looking gals that alt porn is supposed to include).

[Houstondon]

Eon: "honislty this is all I have issue with...
I jsut want you to undersand that I would not be stiing in an office at Vivid right now if poeople jsut pretended to like this stuff...
We have an audanace."

I apologize if my choice of words offended you as that was not my intention. I'm not saying there isn't an audience, I'm just pointing out that the amount of marketing hype is overwhelmingly out of line with the amount of titles on the market worthy of the claims. As far as Vivid is concerned, they are in business to make money and have lost a number of directors of late. I truly hope they provide you with the resources needed to make quality porn (which some of their former directors have scoffed at conceptually by the way) and I also hope they keep a hands off approach to your product as I'd like to see where you go with it but keep in mind that LFP/VCA let you go too.

Alternative movements in general need something actually truly alternative to sustain themselves. My questions have been primarily about how "alternative" the content has been and the apparent need to sacrifice production values for a "look" that negates the fun for a number of folks like myself. Still, your voice is always welcome on the subject as you're on the so-called front lines of the discussion and add a unique perspective.

[XCritic Editor]

I think a key thing to note is that alt-porn HAS gotten people to talk about porn. Something that I think helps everyone.

So how alternative is alt-porn? That depends on your point of view. Was it alt with the Suicide Girls were doing their thing online? Was it alt when former Troma guy Doug Sakmann mixed gore with porn (and Joanna) in Re-Penetrator? At what point is Alt no longer alternative... Perhaps it's when a big studio comes in and gives it support. But isn't that what happned on the alternative music front?

But I think this is symantical. Call it alt-porn, GenY-Porn, Emo-Porn, Porn for the Myspace Crowd, Tatoo Porn. I think the label is less important that what's going on here for the genre.

I think it's more than just clever marketing. A space is opening up in the porn world for 20something directors who see porn in a different way. And if studios let these directors have the creative freedom to make mistakes and make discoveries it's the porn viewer who in the end will win.

Also funny you mention Cafe Flesh, I think movies like that and Dr. Caligari came out of this exact same kind of environment. A unique intersection between mainstream indie film and porn. Btw those films launched Jerry Stahl's mainstream career (for better or worse... eg Bad Boys II)

[Eon McKai]

but keep in mind that LFP/VCA let you go too.



Hummmm thats not how it went down my friend...

do you relly think I could sign with Vivid with in days of VCA leting me go????

NO... I left VCA... I was finishing my contract here when thay found out thaty could not keep me... and Scrabeld to put out a press relice to defame me...

[XCritic Editor]

I think we've covered the two sides here, time to close this puppy.